Getting the lesser spell version for free...

[phiwum]

The rules for Creation Spells explicitly allow one to get the lesser versions (meaning smaller areas) "for free", unlike Staff I - V, where the lesser versions are prerequisites for the greater.

Originally Posted by ITL 137

A Creation Spell for a given area includes all the spells of the same type for lesser areas. For instance, a wizard who knows 3-Hex Fire is also assumed to know the one-hex Fire spell, at no extra IQ cost. A wizard with 7-Hex Illusion automatically knows 4-Hex Illusion and Illusion . . . and so on.

There are other spells, of course, which have area-based versions or otherwise more powerful versions. A few obvious ones (thanks, Shostak!) are Avert/Megahex Avert (and the similar Sleep and Freeze spells) and Rope/Giant Rope. The latter is a Creation Spell, so arguably the previously quoted rule applies, but it's not a spell that involves area so much[1], so it's not obvious whether p.137 applies. On the other hand, Avert/Megahex Avert are more explicitly about area -- sort of. The lesser spells have a person as target, the greater spells a hex as target, but close enough.

So, I thought I'd ask how people play this. I'm not sure if it's a matter of house ruling or interpretation, so I picked this forum.

Do you allow wizards who know Megahex Avert/Sleep to cast the lesser version? What about Giant Rope? Are there good arguments in favor of the more liberal reading? Opposed?

And am I missing any other greater and lesser versions of essentially the same spell?

(Apologies if I've missed the discussion of this topic. I did search for it and was surprised when I didn't find anything relevant.)

Thanks.
[1] Yes, yes, it could be the cross-sectional area of the rope...

[Shostak]

Giant Rope could also give greater area coverage, in that it works on multi-hex creatures like giants. If you put it all in one hex, it gives the effect of extra Rope to be removed. Presumably, Steve Jackson chose to not call it 3-hex Rope so as to limit the spell to a single target rather than letting a wizard potentially hit three one-hex figures with one spell.

Spells like Telepathy and Long-distance Telepathy seem different enough that they probably are not related. But one could easily argue that Long-distance Teleport is a greater version of Teleport. Then there are the questions of whether or not Lesser Magic Item Creation is contained in Greater Magic Item Creation and if having Iron Flesh lets one cast Stone Flesh (or if having Diamond Flesh, one can cast either of the other hardened flesh spells). And, of course, there is the pair of Summon Lesser Demon and Summon Demon to consider.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Giant Rope could also give greater area coverage, in that it works on multi-hex creatures like giants. If you put it all in one hex, it gives the effect of extra Rope to be removed. Presumably, Steve Jackson chose to not call it 3-hex Rope so as to limit the spell to a single target rather than letting a wizard potentially hit three one-hex figures with one spell.

Spells like Telepathy and Long-distance Telepathy seem different enough that they probably are not related. But one could easily argue that Long-distance Teleport is a greater version of Teleport. Then there are the questions of whether or not Lesser Magic Item Creation is contained in Greater Magic Item Creation and if having Iron Flesh lets one cast Stone Flesh (or if having Diamond Flesh, one can cast either of the other hardened flesh spells). And, of course, there is the pair of Summon Lesser Demon and Summon Demon to consider.

I concur with your Giant Rope interpretation.

The real distinction for this advantage of getting the lesser spells at there associated ST cost is that they are (C) cast spells. We may be able to find some specific cast spells to discuss for clarity.

Telepathy is a (T) thrown spell and Long-Distance Telepathy is a (S) special spell. They definitely are different and neither is a cast spell.

As for phiwum's example of Avert and Mega-hex Avert, both are actually thrown spells. Per RAW, they have to be learned separately. That actually came up in our conversation for building my Elf Wizard. I opted not to take either spell and replaced with Invisibility as a reasonable pairing with Mage Sight. I will probably house rule these two spells to be like the cast spells. However, with avert, you are not actually casting it on an area. You are casting it on individuals in a specific area which is probably why they are thrown spells. So, excluding them from the cast spell advantage is in line with RAW and a valid application.

[hcobb]

Actually (C) means Creation Spell, and 7-hex dragon does not include 4-hex dragon.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

I concur with your Giant Rope interpretation.

The real distinction for this advantage of getting the lesser spells at there associated ST cost is that they are (C) cast spells. We may be able to find some specific cast spells to discuss for clarity.

Telepathy is a (T) thrown spell and Long-Distance Telepathy is a (S) special spell. They definitely are different and neither is a cast spell.

As for phiwum's example of Avert and Mega-hex Avert, both are actually thrown spells. Per RAW, they have to be learned separately. [snip] You are casting it on individuals in a specific area which is probably why they are thrown spells. So, excluding them from the cast spell advantage is in line with RAW and a valid application.

But is Giant Rope not also cast on an individual?

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Actually (C) means Creation Spell, and 7-hex dragon does not include 4-hex dragon.

That's a good point, Henry. The quoted excerpt has to do with Creation Spells for "a given area". I don't have a good argument why Summon (7-hex) Dragon isn't about a given area while 7-hex Illusion *is* about a given area, but I think that's the intended interpretation.

One may argue that a 7-hex dragon is bigger than a 4-hex dragon in the same way that a 3-hex fire is bigger than a 1-hex fire, so the two should be treated the same, but I have the feeling that's not the intention.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Shostak

But is Giant Rope not also cast on an individual?

No, the Giant Rope is created in a hex (and hence is blocked by Pentagram rather than Spell Shield.)

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by hcobb

No, the Giant Rope is created in a hex (and hence is blocked by Pentagram rather than Spell Shield.)

Are you arguing for Giant Rope to be able to affect multiple hexes?

[phiwum]

I think that Henry has the right interpretation. Giant Rope is a Creation Spell, not a Thrown Spell.

Which leads to more questions. One question, of course, is what you just asked, Shostak. Since the created object can entangle a multi-hex creature, can it also entangle several one-hex critters? And does a Rope or Giant Rope remain in the hex as an object when no target is available?

I'd say definitely yes to the latter, allowing a Rope spell to create a trap, consistent with the Lesser Magic Item with the Rope spell. Of course, the Rope spell has limited duration.

Whether a Giant Rope spell can cover multiple hexes and hence entangle multiple critters is another matter. I'm not sure about that.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Actually (C) means Creation Spell, and 7-hex dragon does not include 4-hex dragon.

Thanks for the correction on C for Creation. I have made the same mistake since Classic TFT.