Powers: Illusion clarification

[littleleezard]

So I'm no ace with interpreting the plethora of description and rules in the books, so I'm looking for a little clarification.

I've got a PC who took Illusion + Independant + Mental + Stigmata from Powers. I guess I'm a little concerned that power is infinitely more effective than any other offense I can think of. No dodge, no DR... he can sit a mile away, afflict anyone with an illusion that will kill them unless NPCs have an absurdly high Will. No FP cost, its untraceable (due to mental), the afflicted is blind and deaf with no hope of recovery. My player basically makes an exclusionary gunmen stand there and attack his victim, and says, since he has total control of the victim preceptions, all the victim's bullets/attacks appear to miss, and the illusion's attacks hit (stigmata), and that he can't see/hear the PCs.

The player sourced this as magic, so is the only way to not have him cheeze any and every fight to introduce random No/Low-Mana zones? Or equally cheeze NPC combatant's will? Both seem poor options. Or are there more loopholes that NPCs can use to break an illusion? Dopes he take ranged penalties to use illusion to start, or ranged penalties to maintain on subsoquent turns (the -1 per maintained illusion is trvial)? I feel like I must be missing something.

It seems to me that Powers (at least illusion so far) trumps traditional magic spells. Why take spells/magery when you can make them FP free and crit-fail free "powers"?

[lexington]

Originally Posted by littleleezard

I've got a PC who took Illusion + Independant + Mental + Stigmata from Powers. I guess I'm a little concerned that power is infinitely more effective than any other offense I can think of.

So for 85 points plus, apparently, a significant amount of Will and/or Talent you can inflict injury to a person equal to MoS on a Quick Contest of Will unless that person happens to walk behind an obstruction. For the same cost you could buy a devastating innate attack.

Notably Stigmata isn't a guaranteed kill even under idea circumstances, if the victim falls unconscious the damage stops.

Originally Posted by littleleezard

No dodge, no DR... he can sit a mile away

He can pick out a specific person from a mile away in regular circumstances?

Originally Posted by littleleezard

The player sourced this as magic, so is the only way to not have him cheeze any and every fight to introduce random No/Low-Mana zones? Or equally cheeze NPC combatant's will?

In a world with, apparently, powerful superbeings why are you fighting ordinary people? Demons or sorcerers with high Will and Mind Shield seem like more appropriate targets.

Originally Posted by littleleezard

It seems to me that Powers (at least illusion so far) trumps traditional magic spells. Why take spells/magery when you can make them FP free and crit-fail free "powers"?

Dunno, I guess some people enjoy a confusing, vaguely defined, and inelegant system of magic.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by littleleezard

So I'm no ace with interpreting the plethora of description and rules in the books, so I'm looking for a little clarification.

I've got a PC who took Illusion + Independant + Mental + Stigmata from Powers. I guess I'm a little concerned that power is infinitely more effective than any other offense I can think of. No dodge, no DR... he can sit a mile away, afflict anyone with an illusion that will kill them unless NPCs have an absurdly high Will.

He has to be able to see his victim. Mind Shield would work against Mental Illusion. Also it probably won't kill them since it doesn't generally do all that much damage per attack so odds are they'll lose consciousness instead of actually dying. But price it against a Heart Attack Malediction or a Mind Control.

The player sourced this as magic, so is the only way to not have him cheeze any and every fight to introduce random No/Low-Mana zones? Or equally cheeze NPC combatant's will? Both seem poor options. Or are there more loopholes that NPCs can use to break an illusion?

Assuming that you have a skill 20+ combatant, he can just shoot or stab at the PC anyway. Digital mind characters will be immune. Letting the other side get initiative will let them get at least one shot in. Outnumbering the character will mean that the ones who aren't affected yet can continue to attack as he whittles their numbers down. Mind Shield works as mentioned. Exotic senses the PC doesn't know will be unaffected. Invisible or obscured characters can only be targeted by touch. And you can always drug his food.

It seems to me that Powers (at least illusion so far) trumps traditional magic spells. Why take spells/magery when you can make them FP free and crit-fail free "powers"?

Magery gives you more versatility at less character point cost. Advantages let you exceed the limits built into (most) spells. It's a tradeoff.

[littleleezard]

Assuming that you have a skill 20+ combatant, he can just shoot or stab at the PC anyway.

How? I'd love to, but my Pc basically just looks like a bystander and shows no hint that's he's the source of the illusions. It'd be hard to argue having NPCs engage his person over the other 'more threatening' party members.


Well, a mile away was a mild exaggeration, but i can see him with a pair of binoculars says "that guy."

and yes, 85 points buys a lot, but illusion wont kill, it will subdue: the effect ends when the foe is KOd. And it's been mentioned, as with that innate attack, an innate that hurts FP is more expensive because it can subdue effectively. And subdued foes are easy to kill. Illusion (stigmata) subdues, and also, indirectly, enables free kills.

It's a 200 point PC game, so the low end of supers. He's a one trick pony, but that 'one' trick does everything anyone could ever dream of. Throwing peers at the party could be trivialized I think by illusion, as most NPCs that can threaten wont be IQ/will pumped.

We've only had one session so far, and another part member took a 150% point hunter enemy, and it just got neutered by illusion. Free 40 point enemy that can't hurt the party (as 'ambushing' the party would be tpk, I try to limit how screwed the party get by surprise).

Unless I'm throwing mages and geniuses as combatants at the party, I'm worried 300 point laser gun super soldier would be trivial. It's a TL10 game, with crazy armor and weapons available, yet all the DR and guns skill in the world is worthless. Sure, he can negate a-10 for shooting blind, but I still can argue why's he attack the unarmored modesting looking women (illusionist) over any other party member. I haven't gotten far into the campaign, but im worried I can't have a boss fight because of one uber lockdown power. The only effective defense against illusion is having a horde of weaker enemies all at once as they can only be locked down one at a time. And I'm pretty sure that would wipe the party.

For 85 points you should get a big bang for your buck, but an 85 point super-lockdown unbreakable attack that ignores DR/dodge and persists at no costs to the user seems... much. Being a quick contest, if the user has 16 illusion and the victim has 12 will -which I think is reasonably high- there is a huge advantage to the attacker. A 12 dodge would be successful ~%75 of the time, but with a QC, the 12 Will defense has only a ~40% chance of success.

Or should foes have an artificially high will? If I'm sending super-trooper commandos, chances are they are DX, not IQ.

In short, I guess I'm asking, if illusion is as potent as it reads, how to I still make combat encounters interesting? Social and tech challenges will all work out fine, but my table enjoys combat. I don't know how to balance it with Illusion at the table (that player also took luck so he gets a reroll every 10 minutes... aka he can't fail to maintain an illusion...). I can't throw one uber-boss at them because it will be blind/deaf for the first x turns until I find an excuse roll to break illusions. Yes, I could just start mind shielding things, but I forsee my PC raging out at me if I ever do that more than rarely.

[David Johnston2]

I think you need to stop going quite so easy on your PCs. Sure, 300 point super soldier might not be able to resist the illusion, but he can just shoot them anyway. It's only a -10 you know. 300 point super soldier is not helpless. And his initiative is higher, so maybe he should just shoot the illusionist first. And sure, surprise or superior numbers might risk a TPK, but unless you risk them losing it's not possible to challenge them.

Just bear in mind that even if the group loses that doesn't mean they all die. There's no need for all their bad guys to be take no prisoners sorts.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by littleleezard

How? I'd love to, but my Pc basically just looks like a bystander a

What? These people are trying to shoot the PCs and have no idea who they are?

[lexington]

Originally Posted by littleleezard

How? I'd love to, but my Pc basically just looks like a bystander and shows no hint that's he's the source of the illusions. It'd be hard to argue having NPCs engage his person over the other 'more threatening' party members.

I always make PCs who want to be unobtrusive make an Acting roll even with something like TK or Illusion, otherwise they visibly concentrate on the target. People who don't know about powers won't make much of it but other people (who can see them clearly) can figure it out.

Originally Posted by littleleezard

and yes, 85 points buys a lot, but illusion wont kill, it will subdue: the effect ends when the foe is KOd. And it's been mentioned, as with that innate attack, an innate that hurts FP is more expensive because it can subdue effectively. And subdued foes are easy to kill. Illusion (stigmata) subdues, and also, indirectly, enables free kills.

A powerful Affliction that stuns the target for a good long while lets you set up a kill just as easily.

Originally Posted by littleleezard

Unless I'm throwing mages and geniuses as combatants at the party, I'm worried 300 point laser gun super soldier would be trivial. It's a TL10 game, with crazy armor and weapons available, yet all the DR and guns skill in the world is worthless.

In a world with people who can completely subvert human senses the military doesn't have magical mind protection available? You're giving your PC a point break on having a "magic" ability for no cost.

Originally Posted by littleleezard

Sure, he can negate a-10 for shooting blind, but I still can argue why's he attack the unarmored modesting looking women (illusionist) over any other party member.

"Did you kill those people yet?"
"No, sorry, boss."
"What the hell happened?"
"They got a mile out and suddenly became severely injured for no reason."
"Have you considered they might be using magic?"
"Uh..."
"Look for the one who isn't a brute."
"But..."
"Bring the sniper, the robot, the rock monster who senses only vibrations, and the blind martial artist. One of them is bound to work. You've gotta think outside the box to fight magic."

Originally Posted by littleleezard

In short, I guess I'm asking, if illusion is as potent as it reads, how to I still make combat encounters interesting? Social and tech challenges will all work out fine, but my table enjoys combat. I don't know how to balance it with Illusion at the table (that player also took luck so he gets a reroll every 10 minutes... aka he can't fail to maintain an illusion...). I can't throw one uber-boss at them because it will be blind/deaf for the first x turns until I find an excuse roll to break illusions. Yes, I could just start mind shielding things, but I forsee my PC raging out at me if I ever do that more than rarely.

Stigmata is potentially unbalancing, sure, but so is everything if you let it rampage through the game unchecked. If he's in a world where there really is no defense against his powers then he should have been required to take a UB.

[Anaraxes]

Even with No Signature, an attack is only "almost completely unnoticeable", example being a blowgun dart. Alternatively (likely in this case), using the ability produces a psionic or magical trace. There is no utterly undetectable ability.

If magic exists, presumably the bad guys have some magicians on their side, and they're used to detecting magic. Magicians can be detected even if they're being completely passive.

Opponents know what Maneuver you use, so Concentration is obvious, even if they have no idea what you're concentrating on. Being the one completely unobtrusive guy in combat is pretty obtrusive; it's worse if you're standing around Concentrating all the time. If they're complete muggles, it's a mystery. If not, people will jump to the conclusion that you're some kind of threat. (If in doubt, try it on the PCs; give them a group where one member is just standing there Concentrating while bad things happen to one of the party, and see if they find him unthreatening and unobtrusive.)

If you really want to be sneaky, you should gear up and act like you're doing something, at least as a medic or radio operator or something. But then, you'd have to drop the Concentration on your Illusion target.

And of course there's always the Kincaid solution: sniper rifle at long range, no warning.

[DangerousThing]

With all the military cameras and sensors, they should be able to identify the party eventually. And if magic is common enough to get a -10% power modifier, there should be defenses against it.

In my DJverse setting, typically some kind of electric charge is used against a suspected mage; this is normally an electolaser or such depending on the TL.

On the other hand, in my setting, illusion can't do that. There is no "independent" enhancement for illusion, so far. Most of my magic stops as soon as the mage stops concentrating on it, at least a little.

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by littleleezard

the afflicted is blind and deaf with no hope of recovery.

Just a small note, but it does end whenever the illusionist decides to end it to get rid of that penalty per illusion.

Dopes he take ranged penalties to use illusion to start, or ranged penalties to maintain on subsoquent turns (the -1 per maintained illusion is trvial)? I feel like I must be missing something.

No penalties unless you add some limitations to it. With Short Range 2 (-20%) and Increased Immunity 2 (-20%) you get a similar range penalty and immunity level as Mind Control.

But for me the bottomline is that he has paid 85 points for a power that can only affect one at a time and has evidently also paid good points to be able to win most quick contests. Of course it should be very effective. Be glad he hasn't thrown in Area Effect yet and started dumping masses of people with it.

Personally I'd rather have mind control. As effective a fight ender and can do far more. Illusions that only work on one person at a time aren't quite so versatile.

Mostly, I'd suggest to find ways of not ******* his power. It should work and be a badass power more often than not. But if they are facing a squad of opponents falling upon them, he won't have time to end the encounter himself, but he will still make a contribution by taking out some (although as previously mentioned, that might not stop someone from just laying down blind spraying fire in their direction).

For encounters where the PCs hold the initiative and choose the battle ground (ie, with binoculars saying "that guy"), yes, it should be an overwhelmingly useful power. Having magic on that scale should give you that. But that assumes the PCs dictate the terms of most encounters. In such scenarios, you should expect the PCs, with or without this power, to be able to overcome singular foes with little difficulty.

If it's magic I would assume their enemies know how to deal with magic too. If not, and this player is the only one in the group who uses magic, he should have been charged a solid Unusual Background for it.