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Old 06-12-2019, 02:47 PM   #431
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Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Well, for one: Field carriages weren't available for most of the time I was doing this -- all we had was Tripod MG and Tripod RRs. (Neither were "Stinger missiles"; and for those, coming in low was the preferred tactic -- the phrase used by the ex-ADA type I talked to was "lost in the ground clutter". Worst number of hits I ever took from a Stinger cluster was two hits.)

LAWs were popular for "volleying the pila" -- I have a Light Cycle design with 1 sp./50 lbs. cargo (12 GEs), and a *lot* of armor:

Light Cycle; Heavy Suspension; Small Cycle PP; 2 PR tires; Cyclist. Cargo: 1 sp./50 lbs. Plastic Armor: F25; B25. Acceleration: 10; Top Speed: 120 [l.], 125 [u.]; HC 2. $2,000; 750 lbs. ;

one of the loadouts is "six LAWs" -- the rider sets up somewhere, uses the bike's F or B armor as a shield, punches off the LAWs, and Departs The Area With The Quickness.

For another: Stationary firing positions are, well, stationary -- to paraphrase General Gates from _The Crossing_: "They make da[sh]ed fine targets; even a Yankee gunner couldn't miss them". Yes, one can build up berms and such; but once the target point is registered, that fixed position is Going Away. ("Why did you put Laser Guidance on a Cluster Bomb?" [*BOOM*!] "...oh....")

The custom side-shooter bus, like the _Road Block_ from _VG2_, is easily disposed of from the air -- it pulls out; the air power pops up from the opposite direction low-and-fast, and blind-sides the beast. (To give you some idea of what I mean by "low and fast": Look up pics of 5th Air Force surface-attack forces in WW2 -- two of my favorite historical figures are George Kenney, and Paul "Pappy" Gunn. :) )

Really, my main irritation in all this was having to use the "unofficial" mortar rules from _ADQ 5/1_ (if memory serves me correctly), in order to have some "proper" indirect-fire capability. I'm on the wrong computer at the moment, or I'd sketch out a design; but think in terms of a _VG1_ _Micro_ with a mortar in it. (In fact: A _Micro_ with WGs is a pretty effective anti-blockade unit; its main failing is the weak armor, and that could be bumped up at the expense of cargo weight.) The lack of "proper artillery" is why I used air power quite so much; there wasn't any other tools for my style of anti-gang warfare.
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:16 AM   #432
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Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

I think we can probably summarise this whole sub-thread as

"Before the Compendium, Pedestrians had poor offensive capability and were easy to kill. Now they aren't".

In my recent games (2010 onward) pedestrians could be as effective as you allowed them to be even if you just stuck to the Compendium pedestrian equipment (and this has been available for 30 years now, so it's hardly new).

If you choose to assume that pedestrians are exposed to burst effects at all times, then of course they will die like flies. If you assume foxholes etc. work like they are supposed to then they won't.

If you set your scenarios where pedestrians mill about in the open as targets then of course it will play out like a shooting gallery. From the first pedestrian supplement (1982) however, the rules allowed you (and expected you) to use cover to your advantage (peds prone in rubble are -5 to hit). They were always hard to kill, they just couldn't do much in return.

Vehicles are inherently compromises between speed, manoeuvrability, anti-vehicular capability (and potentially anti-air capability) and size. Infantry doesn't need to worry about HS, they can change direction 180 degrees every phase they move without penalty (and operate off-road with no penalty), no infantry equipment will move them out of the 0-30 speed band and usually they will be stationary so you can arm them pretty much how you want, their equipment is often cheaper for a similar effect and therefore they are generally cheap, meaning that you can afford many of them (and that means many firing actions), they can fire in any direction including straight up at will so they are universal by default, they are always small (-3 or lower).

Pedestrians also only have a single skill that is worth bothering about (Hand Gunner). Unless you can spare the space for dedicated crew (which is a further design constraint) you will probably have to split your skills between Driver and Gunner (at least).

Medic for peds is useless in the short term as it can't get people back in the fight or fix them for the extraction (it just keeps them alive so they can heal over 4-6 weeks or brings them round for a few minutes). Mechanic on the other hand can restore a vehicle to combat readiness in the short term. This strength is double edged, it means you need to have some repair materials and tools (that eat into your equipment budgets) and also requires more skill diversity.

Pedestrians can with very little effort be a threat to normal CW vehicles.

If you take on even a limited subset of the advanced equipment in Tanks (and thence UACFH) pedestrians can quickly outclass conventional vehicles (i.e. those optimised to fight other vehicles) and can still challenge vehicles equipped using the same book and designed for anti-infantry operations (as there tends to be an upper limit on how much kit you can use per turn per person and cars have less people than infantry funded to the same level).

Tanks in urban areas go with infantry support for a reason. Infantry in CW should only be attacking from a position of advantage and until they are attacking, they are not infantry, just another NPC. If you treat any NPC as a target by default then your games will be "easier". Without consequences however they will also be a bit pointless (which CW always recognised - no prestige for killing peds).

Last edited by swordtart; 06-13-2019 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:46 AM   #433
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Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

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Originally Posted by 43Supporter View Post
For another: Stationary firing positions are, well, stationary -- to paraphrase General Gates from _The Crossing_: "They make da[sh]ed fine targets; even a Yankee gunner couldn't miss them".
Hmm, hardly apposite.

"Those big Durham boats of yours make damn good targets. Even a Yankee gunner couldn't miss them."

A boat on a river ain't the same thing (but I presume they did indeed miss them since Washington did in fact cross the Delaware).
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Old 06-13-2019, 02:44 PM   #434
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A boat on a river ain't the same thing (but I presume they did indeed miss them since Washington did in fact cross the Delaware).
The Hessians missed them because they never *saw* them -- showing up at 3AM... well, does the name "Nightsword" ring any bells? :)

Vehicles vs. Peds: The one problem which Peds have never been able to overcome is DP -- a Ped has 3 to start with, and at-best can add maybe 6 on top of that (I've never had occasion to test the efficacy of Riot Shields); and, as noted, they are vulnerable to Burst Effect. So that's 1-2 hits they can take; the question then becomes "how quickly can the cars get those hits" (and "how many of them are getting hit at once" -- spreading out the Peds helps their defense, but makes concentration of fire a bit harder).

I dug up some of my convoy-adventure paperwork, to see what I was using at the time -- bearing in mind most of these date from the mid-'80s:

Point Vehicle: Always a Midsize (rolling brick with hefty throw-weight) -- usually a _Tomahawk_ (standard, or HF), with WG added; or my _REM-4A_ (2x RR F; sub-$15K) w/ WG.

Rearguard: Midsize -- a _Joseph Special T_ with the HRs replaced by MDs. Luxury -- a _Hotshot_ with three FT-to-MD swaps (1 ea. L, R, B). Whatever the case, it's usually sub-$20K, yet can make life difficult for pursuers (esp. if one plumps for "dual-mode" detonation on the mines).

Air Support: 1-man Helicopter here; it's typically the only hull one can afford for any sort of limited budget (~$40K; essentially counts as 2 cars). A _Gnat_ with Bombs vice HRs is effective; the "EDSEL _Snapdragon_" I mentioned earlier is even better (Univ. Tu. MG, plus CB15s).

"Floaters" (the guys in the middle of the convoy): Midsize or Luxury, with something in a turret. _Joseph Special T_, or even one of the old "taxicab" designs works here.

Support: Pickup, usually a _Micro_ with WG added; the turreted RL isn't exactly perfect, but it can be used as a "floater" as well as for ash-and-trash detail.

This is using "basic" _CW_ tech; start adding stuff like Metal Armor (which is going to render most Ped weapons useless, requiring them to put more budget into heavier, and less-mobile, guns) and Electronic Warfare, and the strategic and tactical discussion becomes *far* more complicated (and expensive).
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Old 06-14-2019, 05:00 AM   #435
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OK, I'll bite.

I'll put up an equivalent cost of peds armed with SMGs. At $370 fully loaded they are dirt cheap, we will also invest in flash eliminators and extended magazines so we have a full 20 rounds per gun. I will also give everyone a couple of smoke grenades to cover the extraction in the event of an emergency. I might upgrade to ARs once I get back home and can look up the stats.

True, metal armour will blunt the attack, but even SMG's strip metal with a rolled 6. WGs are rarely metal. You still suffer HS loss even if the damage doesn't penetrate metal.

As you say there is no point in having BA as any hit from a vehicular weapon is usually going to go through. I am not wasting even $250 on something that only has a 50% chance of keeping me alive vs a single d6 weapon and almost no chance against something meatier. I will rely on the infinite DPs of the trench instead.

We will dig foxholes with short (1") shallow communication trenches to the 5' wide x 5' deep drainage ditch that is running alongside the length of field by the road anyway (and thence away to the dispersal point). On the firing step they are head and shoulders so -5. If they duck down they are completely covered and immune to direct fire and BE that does not land directly in the 5' x 5' foxhole or communication trench (which means no direct fire BE can hit them either). If they crawl along the extraction trench they are similarly invulnerable. After about 1 turn of crawling they will roll into the drainage ditch and can crouch run to safety remaining invulnerable.

We will use some camo nets and existing brush to cover the foxholes and extraction trench so that they cannot be seen. On the map I will not be placing any counters until you reveal them (by passing within 1/2" of a firing soldier). Once revealed all of your units can target (we'll assume they are netted in to each other). Of course having fired the ped could move into the communication trench and you wouldn't know. We will need a referee who will know where they are (by grid reference). We will also secretly roll the dice to hit so that you cannot identify the range I am firing at. You are of course free to target likely sites that might conceal troops (think the monty-python camouflage lesson).

I think on that level of equipment (and using the usual everyone gets the same money) I could set up over a dozen troops and still come in under the cost of just your point man.

I'll invest all my skill points in Hand Gunner.

I'll give you fair warning and post a sign "Toll Road - Safe passage for $50 per vehicle. Convoys not paying the full toll will be subject to fire without further warning." There is also an honesty box (clearly you must be under observation from concealment at this point). The sign is 1/2 - 5 miles from where I am setting up. There are no branches in the road after the sign, but there is nothing to stop you turning round right there (it will just cost you an extra 40 miles to go another route).

If you pay and move on, once you are out of sight a boy will emerge from cover and check the payment. If it is good they will signal another boy who has remained in cover who will radio ahead with a code word to let the convoy pass. If the boy signals that the money is not good (or you sneakily manage to kill him) a different code word will be sent and the convoy will be ambushed. If the convoy arrives and no radio message has been received a check will be made and if there is no response the assumption will be that you killed both of the boys. The ambush will take place, but the surrender conditions will be more onerous.

Let me know exactly how much your convoy is worth and I'll work out how many peds are appropriate (and what the support equipment, pickups, shovels, oil etc. should cost).

Last edited by swordtart; 06-14-2019 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:29 PM   #436
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You put some deep thought into your setup; if I'm to try to defeat it, I must also put deep thought into *how* -- if I "just go storming in", I'm going to get my head handed to me on a platter (and deservedly, for being so foolish). However, all the myriad possibilities would result in a work the approximate size and literary density of _The Winds Of War_ -- and no one wants to read *that* again.... :)

OK, to be fair, I'll start with a non-smart-alec-y answer: _Metal Magnum_ semi-tractor, with WGs converted to Metal, and 240 lbs. hull armor converted to FPP hubs (not like it's going to hurt handling any); _Hellfire_ trailer, also with WG to Metal, and FPP hubs. Sub-$200K; essentially invulnerable to non-AV weapons; the only drawback is, of course, pre-laid dropped weapons, and that only because there are no rules for clearing the things (a *major* flaw in the rules, BTW).

Which leads to the smart-alec-y answer:

_Super Aerohauler_ [based on unit from _Badlands Run_ Enc. 4]

Transport Heli.; Su. PP [20,000 PF]; Pilot, Gunner. 2-sp. Univ. Tu. [U]; 2x MG (link) [Tu.]; cargo: 2(17) sp./10,040 lbs. Armor (Pl.): all facings: 30. $116,850; 20,000 lbs. [ld.]. Acc.|TS: 5|150 [l.], 10|200 [u.]; HC: 1.

[waves politely as he flies by at 5,000' AGL]

If the mission is to eliminate the gang, there's the Bomber Option: replace 15 sp./4,500 lbs. cargo with CB150s; add IRTL, LGL [IRTL - CB150s], IRSS, HRSWC [Gn. - IRTL]. +$15,250.

Teleguided CB150s are another option, but those are *really* pricey.

Fly over the area; use the IRSS to mark where the bad guys are, and are going (camo nets do not have anti-IR functionality); bombs away -- and the way CBs work, dispersing bomblets *above* the target, the trenches and berms will *not* save them. (And as the Gunner will be aiming at a fixed point on the ground, the TH bonus should be about the same as aiming at a building....

Or, another possibility, the "sauce for the goose" approach: Load the _Aerohauler_ with 17 Infantry: IBA($1,500); SMG w/ ext. mag ($570); BV ($75): 2x SMG Ext. Mag. ($640), 2x Expl. Gre. (Imp. fuse) ($150), MP (ext. mag.) ($570), Knife ($50). $3,555 ea. ($60K and change, but that's Sturmtruppen for you). I suppose the budget-minded might swap the IBA/BV for BA/ABV and a no-paint gas mask ($525), bringing the cost down to $42.5K or so.

Looking at the various "convoy" adventures published: ~$150,000 is what a beginning convoy would run in the "modern era", esp. with semis running upwards of $300K in _VG2_. This is why I became the "architect of air power" in NOVA; the price tags for convoys were getting *STUPIDLY* high, and it became cheaper to use acft., helis and fixed-wings. I'm looking at my folder right now; one pure-cargo design is a Cargo Airplane with 42 cargo spaces, and 13,080 lbs capacity (plus Wingtip-Turreted MGs, CDs, and HSSs for defense) at just under $200K (when I have time, I'll detail it here). That's as much as a good semi, and doesn't have to worry about toll gangs (unless one has a very low opinion of FBOs :) ).
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Old 06-14-2019, 04:02 PM   #437
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OK, Vehicle Designs, Aerial Support Department:

_Donnerschlag_ "Civil": Cargo Airplane; Su. PP w/ PC, SC [23,000 PF]; 5x OR Std. tire (4 main, 1 tailwheel); 2x Prop w/ Ducted Cowling [26,450 PF]; Pilot. 2x 3-sp. W-T Tu. [1 ea. Wing], 6x MG [3 ea. WTT], 3 Links [1 ea. WTT, 1 between WTTs]; 2x CD (Linked) [B]; 2x SS [HS] (Linked) [B]; Link [all CD, SS]. Acft. Radio; Ret. Land. Gear; Imp. Cont.; Ej. Safety Seat [Pi.]; Comp. Nav./Autopilot w/ Upg. (Links: CN-A; A-CG; A-Radar); Comp. Gn. w/ Upg., Surge Prot. (Link: WTTs); Sloping/Streamlining; OR Susp.; HRSWC [Pi. - WTT Link]; Radar w/ Radar Alt.; cargo: [1|10(30)|1] sp.; 13,080 lbs. Armor [P]: F, UF, UB: 50; all others: 45. 2x 20 pts. Prop armor. $199,290; 30,000 lbs. [loaded].
Acc.|TS: 10|382.5 [l], 20|472.5 [u.]; Stall: 100; HC: 1.

Designed for delivering cargos where the Busnoughts -- and everyone else, for that matter -- don't run. It's fast, it has decent range, it handles reasonably well for its size (useful for getting into and out of unprepared airstrips), it doesn't need pavement to land, and can be operated by a single crewman thanks to the borderline-mil-spec electronic-aid package. It costs as much as a decent semi rig, but makes up for it with its speed and ability ignore road hazards.
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Old 06-15-2019, 03:20 PM   #438
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More Aerial Support, showing what Upgraded Tech can do:

_'38 Aerohauler_

Transport Heli.; St. PP w/ PC, SC [16,100 PF]; Pilot, Gunner. 2-sp. Univ. Tu. [U]; 2x MG (Link) [Tu.]; 2x Ext. Power Cell; Cargo: [2(17)] sp./3,870 lbs. Armor [Pl.]: all sides: 40. $137,950; 16,100 lbs. [Acc.: 5; TS: 150 [l], 170 [u]; HC: 1]

Rather than having to fiddle with an entire second plant, this upgrade uses Extra Power Cells to maintain the unit's range. When Helicopter Weapon Wings become available, one could add 4-space wings, and mount two Flush Solar Panels in each, for those *really* long trips. (Has anyone noticed there are no rules for vehicle-mounted toilets? :) )
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Old 06-16-2019, 02:24 PM   #439
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Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

If you fly over my road, you don't need to pay a toll, so I won't even shoot at you. If you pay the toll, I win and I won't shoot at you, so we'll have to assume you want to engage or it's either win to me or a draw.

Hmm, I am not sure where you get "and the way CBs work, dispersing bomblets *above* the target, the trenches and berms will *not* save them". Now in the real world CBs do indeed distribute sub munitions, the CW rules don't mention that (and we have to be very careful of attributing real world effects to Car Wars flavour text). All we have is the statement that it has the 1.5 burst radius for full damage and diminishing damage in increasing radius. We have no real clue if a CB is just a word that someone decided to pick as flavour text.

Now the best way of handing real CB in CW parlance would be instead to use the scatter-pack rules and specify a number of smaller grenade style munitons with a defined effect per sub-munition. However these sub-munitions still need to land in a specific place, and if that specific place is not within the foxhole, then it will have no more effect than any other BE munition landing outside the foxhole.

Only Cloud Bombs actually detonate above the ground (actually ground to the usual 1/2" height for all dropped gasses). If it landed in a foxhole then the foxhole and the communication trench would be filled, but it wouldn't affect anyone in the next foxhole directly. I would allow the additional 2" radius to also cover under and above the cloud and so troops in foxholes covered by the original HDSS counter would suffer the 1d damage (but not those in foxholes 2" beyond the counter). It is still only a 1" x 2" counter though so you will still need lots.

IRSS simply eliminates penalties for night firing, it is not thermal imaging (this is explicit from Tanks). For that you need a thermograph which costs extra and is an upgrade to IRSS. If you are going to use that though you will also need to be using the spotting rules from Tanks which are a function of range. You will still be in a far better position than trying optical spotting, but it isn't a foregone conclusion. You will still only see targets that you are directly above as even thermographs cannot see through earth banks.

If you are going to start using aeroduel aircraft, I'll require you use the aeroduel bombing rules. If you are horizontal bombing then you will be hard pressed to be able to spot anything you can drop a bomb on (as the bomb needs to travel horizontally as it falls). This is less of an issue with low level bombing (as the vertical component takes less time), for slow moving a/c or ideally helo's. You could dive bomb but then you need to take the range into account and risk dumping munitions all over the shop. You also need to use the extended scatter rules and not rely on the tiddly scatter distances in the basic rules.

I don't think teleguidance is an option for bombs. Laser guidance just gives bombs a to hit of 6 (laser guidance needs to be operating for the duration of the drop, if you lose LOS to the target during that time you automatically miss). The bonus for hitting the ground is already included in the to hit for a bomb.

Last edited by swordtart; 06-16-2019 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 06-16-2019, 03:01 PM   #440
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Hmm, I am not sure where you get "and the way CBs work, dispersing bomblets *above* the target, the trenches and berms will *not* save them".
Here's a pic of CBs in a test operation -- note they detonate well above ground: http://www.army-technology.com/wp-co...-DoD-large.jpg -- the detonation expands spherically; so if one goes off above a trench, a berm is not going to help

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Now in the real world CBs do indeed distribute sub munitions, the CW rules don't mention that (and we have to be very careful of attributing real world effects to Car Wars flavour text). All we have is the statement that it has the 1.5 burst radius for full damage and diminishing damage in increasing radius.
Ah, yes -- that old argument. I suppose one could add Proximity Fusing if one assumes CBs are ground-contact; but I don't subscribe to that. (I figure a large part of the expense and loss-of-damage-potential for CBs is that they *don't* detonate on-contact, but have to scatter bomblets from on-high.)

As to Scatter: That's why there's a guidance package on the bombs -- as Billy Connolly put it, "Bomb-O-Gram". (Believe it or not: This is the result of a rather spectacular T-H failure -- uncorked a CB1500 from a mile up at 300MPH, and rolled a perfect 2. After that, guidance packages became standard-operating-procedure.)

IRSS v. Thermograph: Annoyingly, T-G is Military-Only, which is why I left it off; this would be a heck of a surprise to my local outdoor-supply stores, who have man-portable thermographs in stock. (How times change....)

ObVehicle -- talking of Proximity-Fused ammo, imagine what this upgrade could do with same:

_'39 Strafe_

Std. Heli.; Su. PP w/ PC, SC [23,000 PF]; Pi., Gn. 3x 3-sp. EWP [1 ea. L, R, U]; 12 x MG [HD or Expl. am.] [F] [3 in body; 3 ea EWP]; 7x Link [1 ea.: F MGs; L EWP MGs; R EWP MGs; U EWP MGs; L & R EWP MGs; F & U EWP MGs; all MGs]; 6x CB15 (3x Link; 1 ea. 2 CBs) [U]; IR; Ext. Dr. Cont.; 2x TC; 4x Ext. Rot. [2 ea. M, S]. Armor: Fuselage: 270 pts. FPP; Rotors: 2x 10-pt. FPP; EWPs: 3x 10-pt. FPP. $142,150; 15,290 lbs. Acc.: 10; TS: 165; HC: 3.
[Armor: F, U: 50; L, R, B: 45; T: 35. Main Rot.: 10; Sta. Rot.: 10. Each EWP: 10.]

Up-Armored Opt.: add 110 pts. LR Metal Fuselage armor [F, U: 21/50; L, R, B: 18/45; T: 14/35]. [Acc.: 5; TS: 135] $151,225; 22,990 lbs.
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