Beats Suck(?)

[Victor Maxus]

I have a player whose character, by design, is really big, by not very skilled (compared to other heroes that is). He is 17 strength, and only a 12 skill, with nothing in his feint. (He has no formal training as a fighter, he is justa big guy, not too smart, who loves animals, who, over time, self taught how to swing a big, wooden club; two handed axe/mace). For him, a beat is an excellent option. This is what it was created for, to give some one like this, with a character concept, a means by which to break through the defenses of others with out having to rely on skill or dex.

[DouglasCole]

Just to belabor the obvious, what kendo/kenjutsu and fencing call a 'beat' is a DX-based Feint or Deceptive attack, not a GURPS Beat.

In GURPS, a Beat is a frackin' SMASH. It's designed, I think, for ST15+, often 20-30, with Ogres and Giants in mind.

(I have done both fencing and still do hwarang kumtoogi and bongtoogi; these moves are definitely DX-based)

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

We already know that Beats are good if you're strong, that's not the point of this thread. The point is that a character who is equally competent at both Beat and Feint, the clear choice is Feint, or so it seems to me. I want them to be equally valid tactical choices, and I want to know if that means I need to make a house rule or not.

Well a beat affects the defense for everyone, a feint only for yourself. If they're both equal, that's your decision maker right there. Do you want others to also be able to take advantage? If yes, then beat. It certainly saves time if you need to mob someone you can't maneuver round and one of their defenses is very good.

[MrBackman]

Can someone point me to the 'beat' rule in the 4e books? Or is it in Martial arts?

[Victor Maxus]

I think it is found in the martial arts.

[DouglasCole]

Beats: GURPS Martial Arts, p100.

[DouglasCole]

One thing that occurs:

If you do a successful beat, and your margin of victory is 5+ or 10+ depending on how hard you want it to be, the thing receiving the Beat becomes Unready from that point on.

Or make it by 5+ and it's unready, make it be 10+ and you get a disarm if it's gripped.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Just to belabor the obvious, what kendo/kenjutsu and fencing call a 'beat' is a DX-based Feint or Deceptive attack, not a GURPS Beat.

In GURPS, a Beat is a frackin' SMASH. It's designed, I think, for ST15+, often 20-30, with Ogres and Giants in mind.

(I have done both fencing and still do hwarang kumtoogi and bongtoogi; these moves are definitely DX-based)

Incorrect:

Originally Posted by MA p 173

Kenjutsu places much emphasis on the cut. Fighters
learn to thrust but usually use their sword for deep slashes.
Likewise, while Kenjutsu teaches a full range of parries, it
isn’t a defensive art. Stylists commonly make Committed
and All-Out Attacks. The classic Kenjutsu tactic is to dash
the opponent’s blade out of line with a Beat (pp. 100-101)
and then finish him with a cut. Ultimately, Kenjutsu is a
highly aggressive style.

It's not a beat, but a Beat, and he even quotes the page number. According to martial arts, Kenjutsu does not engage in a beat-but-really-it's-a-feint, they engage in a Beat, which means that a Beat is honestly intended to be the fencing-style "dash a blade out of line, and then slip in through the opening and finish him off"

Now, if you're arguing "Yeah, but Beat as written really isn't that," well then, how can we make it into that without unbalancing the game? I appreciate that everyone's telling me "Oh, but it's only really useful if you have GWAARRR amounts of strength," but that just means I want to fix it, and any suggestions you have in that direction would be very useful.

Originally Posted by Victor Maxus

I have a player whose character, by design, is really big, by not very skilled (compared to other heroes that is). He is 17 strength, and only a 12 skill, with nothing in his feint. (He has no formal training as a fighter, he is justa big guy, not too smart, who loves animals, who, over time, self taught how to swing a big, wooden club; two handed axe/mace). For him, a beat is an excellent option. This is what it was created for, to give some one like this, with a character concept, a means by which to break through the defenses of others with out having to rely on skill or dex.

Originally Posted by Dinadon

Well a beat affects the defense for everyone, a feint only for yourself. If they're both equal, that's your decision maker right there. Do you want others to also be able to take advantage? If yes, then beat. It certainly saves time if you need to mob someone you can't maneuver round and one of their defenses is very good.

Thus, is it your point that these are the only things Beat is useful for? You'll note I point this out in the OP.

Do you have any suggestions as to how to bring it more into line with Feint, so that characters without unbelievable amounts of strength can take advantage of it too?

Originally Posted by MrBackman

Can someone point me to the 'beat' rule in the 4e books? Or is it in Martial arts?

Martial Arts page 100-101

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

One thing that occurs:

If you do a successful beat, and your margin of victory is 5+ or 10+ depending on how hard you want it to be, the thing receiving the Beat becomes Unready from that point on.

Or make it by 5+ and it's unready, make it be 10+ and you get a disarm if it's gripped.

Yeah, I've been toying with this. That seems to be the point of a Beat after all. You knock the blade into a position where it can't really defend or attack, ie, it becomes Unready. I'm just not sure if that's too powerful. If I All-Out Attack and Beat, then I can keep you off-balance effectively forever.

On the other hand, that's not unreasonable (can't you just picture an aggressive samurai practically knocking a guy off his feet with every blow, who's struggling to just get his blade back in line in time for the next assault? Clash clash CLASH with sparks flying), and you're talking about a pretty big margin of victory, and if you're fighting someone that unbelievably strong or skilled at Beating, you're going to stop bringing your blade into contact with his and start to rely on Dodge...

(Thank you for the suggestion, by the way)

[Cheomesh]

With the expanded feint rules, beat is a good option if the opponent is currently wielding a weapon that isn't their best skill. With a beat, they're rolling against the skill of the weapon they're physically holding. With the feint, they can resist with their highest skill.

Not much but it is something.

M.