Outcast rules

[Jason]

Where were the Grigori Outcast to after being rounded up? There's no mention of a mass slaughter of angels, but it's not clear to me why you'd formally round them up (as the Game Master's Guide specifies in the timeline, IIRC) if you're just going to set them loose back on Earth again. Were they sent into the Far Marches or something, where they would do less damage? Blasted into outer space..?

The Infernal Player's Guide specifies that at a handful of former Servitors of Purity Fell and became demons. However, the Ethereal Player's Guide specifies that Servitors of Purity can't Fall. Does this mean that the Tsayadim are technically Orphans, but not Outcasts, and that a former Servitor of Purity CAN Fall as long as he chooses to break his Heart and go Outcast?

And finally, can you even Cast Out an Archangel? What does that entail? It's implied that the Grigori Archangel of Song suffered this very fate, but it's not clear to me what that means. Stripping of Archangel powers and status? Or just being shot into outer space with the rest of its Choir?

[Rocket Man]

From what I can tell, they were Outcast to the same place every other Outcast goes ... Earth. (That's one reason why there's so many Children of the Grigori around, for one thing.)

So what, I hear? True, their troubles came because they loved Earth too much to begin with. But this also has the consequence of:

1) Making it impossible for them to ascend to Heaven until they collectively get their act together and then petition to an Archangel. (Most likely, Dominic)

2) Guaranteeing that they'll be monitored by Judgment to make sure they don't sin further while working out their Destiny .. Grigori who cross the line further open themselves up to greater punishment. (This is also the main reason why the few Grigori left tend to vanish into the background and try to avoid notice.)

3) Giving them an odd sort of protection, a la the Mark of Cain -- Dominic frowns on anyone who leans on the Grigori "just because," since they've already been sentenced. Any more punishment, without cause, is unjust.

Not sure about the Tsyadim question yet. As far as an Archangel goes, the closest I've ever seen is Khalid's exile, which was a sort of self-Outcasting. He didn't lose his power, but he didn't ascend to Heaven either, and his behavior became very erratic. Barring something like that, I suppose an action by the collective Seraphim Council or God Himself could do the trick. (Either could explain the Archangel of Song.)

EDIT: However, even given the above, the Grigori Archangel would probably still possess his Word, if he's alive. It's been stated in several places that nothing but Falling/redemption, soul-death, or the direct act of the Seraphim Council/Lucifer can separate a celestial from a Word once given.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Jason

Where were the Grigori Outcast to after being rounded up? There's no mention of a mass slaughter of angels, but it's not clear to me why you'd formally round them up

The "rounding them up" bit was before their trial. I think that was a matter of Dominic preferring not to try anyone in absentia for such an important crime. And collecting them would make sure that none could later claim "I didn't know about the sentence!" when getting Up To Something.

Originally Posted by Jason

The Infernal Player's Guide specifies that at a handful of former Servitors of Purity Fell and became demons. However, the Ethereal Player's Guide specifies that Servitors of Purity can't Fall.

There is the option of using Jumping (GMG, p. 125). That way, Servitors of Purity can become arbitrarily dissonant without falling, but if they ever consciously make a choice to fall, they do.

Originally Posted by Jason

Does this mean that the Tsayadim are technically Orphans, but not Outcasts,

I'm guessing that they're Outcasts, at least in the sense that they've broken their Hearts. Otherwise, Heaven would be able to monitor them through their Hearts, and would probably have collected most of them by now. I'm not sure if they're officially considered Outcast, though, since it's at least possible to argue that they haven't broken Heavenly law. They are, after all, continuing a mission their Archangel gave them.

Originally Posted by Jason

And finally, can you even Cast Out an Archangel? What does that entail?

Archangels seem to have Hearts just like everyone else, so Outcasting means breaking their Heart, which presumably does have all the usual effects - not asscending to Heaven without help, or going to Limbo on vessel-death, for example.

[Jason]

Those all seem like sensible interpretations, but two of these points present certain issues:

There was a big discussion in an earlier thread (with editors contributing) about how the Tsyadim are very unlikely to have broken their own Hearts, given their hatred of dissonance. Technically, according to the canon rules, their Hearts still exist somewhere in Heaven, but it seems like it's kind of a plot hole, nobody can figure out how they'd stay hidden from Litheroy for long.

In that same thread (and others), it also points out that there are plenty of angels and demons who don't have Hearts; they just serve in Heaven, not on Earth. I don't see why Archangels would need a Heart, seeing as how they can be in multiple places at the same time with relative ease (according to the Game Master's Guide), and Superiors are the ones who create Hearts anyway...

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Jason

There was a big discussion in an earlier thread (with editors contributing) about how the Tsyadim are very unlikely to have broken their own Hearts, given their hatred of dissonance.

Maybe, but I'll note that that interpretation was never confirmed by Beth or any of the other authors/FAQ keepers at the time. Personally, I prefer the option that they all sucked it up and took a point of Dissonance to shatter their Hearts, and then the Masters of Purity stripped it off.

Originally Posted by Jason

In that same thread (and others), it also points out that there are plenty of angels and demons who don't have Hearts; they just serve in Heaven, not on Earth.

Note that all fully-fledged Angels do have a Heart, even those who don't go to Earth. Beth's discussion about "floating" demons, who sort of unofficially work for Princes but aren't bound to their dissonance conditions, is in opposition to the case in Heaven, where every angel gets one.

Originally Posted by Jason

I don't see why Archangels would need a Heart, seeing as how they can be in multiple places at the same time with relative ease (according to the Game Master's Guide), and Superiors are the ones who create Hearts anyway...

Hearts, besides the utility aspect, are a nice thing to have period. An angel who's troubled or saddened can go contemplate their Heart for a while. The Heart reminds the angel that they're connected to something bigger who cares for them. Even Archangels can benefit from this.
And, of course, just because an Archangel can manifest in many places at once doesn't necessarily let them break the other rules of celestial nature. I'd rule that they still need a Heart to ascend to Heaven, if they don't already have a manifestation there. It's just that most Archangels would leave a manifestation at their Cathedral as a matter of course, so it doesn't tend to come up. But the Grigori Archangel(s) can't do that, for obvious reasons.