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Old 11-16-2012, 12:32 PM   #1
daniel_gudman
 
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Default Balancing Magic A and Magic B

Okay! Let's pretend you're a player, and I'm your GM. We're playing a game about magic users.

The premise is, a Wainscott setting--magic is hidden. Mostly this is so we don't have to build a whole different society with a different technology base, we can focus on the point microeconomics of your character sheets, not the point macroeconomics of the societies they exist in. Really my point is that I, the GM, don't want to write the Silmarillion just so your character can have a wide variety of backstory options available.

The campaign sourcebook:
Thaumatology

All of it. All kinds of magic.
(Maybe not the "realm" stuff; it was kind of under-developed for the plug-and-play functionality a forum thread doing comparative discussion needs).

What are your balance concerns? Is one kind more broken than others? How would you balance them, or are they unbalanceable?

How do you think the Magery Advantage should be handled?

How should the divisive sourcebook "Magic" be included?
(My first inclination is to allow default magic with the default spell list in the core book, but flatly disallow the book "Magic", to keep it from out-weighing other styles; but that's merely one opinion).

...What kind of character would you play?
(This is just my curiosity about what other people consider most interesting).

In short,

Please share your thoughts about this premise.


(I'd probably have you playing as, for example, Magic-is-a-Secret Police. So, at least for this discussion: figuring out what kind of magic is happening would be part of, or even most of, the game, so please consider "dealing with different kinds of magic" as somewhat the point of the game, not a cumbersome distraction from the plot).

Last edited by daniel_gudman; 11-16-2012 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: Balancing Magic A and Magic B

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel_gudman;1477090T
How do you think the Magery Advantage should be handled?
Probably a separate Magery "specialization" for each magic system.

Quote:
How should the divisive sourcebook "Magic" be included?
(My first inclination is to allow default magic with the default spell list in the core book, but flatly disallow the book "Magic", to keep it from out-weighing other styles; but that's merely one opinion).
Unfortunately, Basic Set's Magic chapter is rather thin. I think you really need to include at least some addition material from Magic. However, you could divide the spells into different categories (ie, Wizardly, Divine, and Druidic, like in DF) or different styles (though that's more work for you). Banning certain spells, at least for PCs, is also recommended.

Quote:
...What kind of character would you play?
(This is just my curiosity about what other people consider most interesting).
I'm a big fan of the Path/Book systems, so would probably go with that. Of course, there are some campaign choices that would need to be made on how they function. For example, which casting model they each use (Energy Accumulation vs Effect Shaping), how Magery interacts with them, what particular Books are available and their contents, etc.

Quote:
(I'd probably have you playing as, for example, Magic-is-a-Secret Police. So, at least for this discussion: figuring out what kind of magic is happening would be part of, or even most of, the game, so please consider "dealing with different kinds of magic" as somewhat the point of the game, not a cumbersome distraction from the plot).
That would be very interesting! It also raises the question of how different magic systems interact and counter each other. For example, is Dispel Magic just as potent against Path/Book rituals as it is against College Spells? How hard is it to craft a counter-spell using Syntactic Magic? What can the Mage Sense inherent to Magery detect - any Magic-based phenomenon, or only ones associated with that version of Magery? I don't think there is a generic answer to most of those, so it's basically up to the GM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: Balancing Magic A and Magic B

I'm a big fan of threshold based syntactic magic and magic-as-powers. Remember that some types of syntactic magic might use margin of success for paramaters, while others use skill penalties. Modifying the Magery advantage is also quite good at modeling other styles of magic.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: Balancing Magic A and Magic B

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel_gudman View Post
The campaign sourcebook:
Thaumatology

All of it.
Overall balance concerns: Play with the Mana level and Magic is probably balanced against the rest. Either go with a simple Low Mana option or even Very Low Mana with or without Cabal modifiers. At Normal Mana (and higher than average cp levels) default Magic is too easy to use as Secret Magic.

Allow the Path/Book Adept options and that form of magic is well balanced against standard Magic and might well be my choice instead of standard. Without Adept, Path/Book is generally too slow and cumbersome to keep up with anything else though it does fine for groups who like thinking and preparing ahead when it's the only magic. Without Adept, Path/Book mages can be hard-pressed to do magic quickly in response to adventure elements

Threshold Magic probably ends up as what the Magic Police spend a lot of time trying to regulate if not actually stamp out. Catastrophes are very injurious to the Secret if not the entire local evironment.

Magic-as-Powers is heavily dependant on cp level as most of the characters it produces are effectively magic-powered supers. A high cp level and no restictions could lead to hypercompetent specialists who can't be defeated in their specialty but are extremely limited outside it. It's very dificult to prodce a Magic-as-Powers generalist. Probably the choice of most players who wan't to do cool stuff but don't want to grapple with a full magic system.

Any of the ultimately flexible mages (Syntactic/Realms/whatever) will probably not compete well as their players will still be trying to figure out what to do when players with better defined systems have already solved the problem or just got tired of waiting.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: Balancing Magic A and Magic B

My simple solution in my setting is the Supernatural Gains Tax

This handy tax code is 'supernatural gains should not exceed equivalent mundane gains, any excess due to supernatural means is taxed appropriately'

So if your 16yr old Magical Prodigy turns lead into gold? The friendly tax people determine that anything in excess of the minimum wage he could make at McDonalds is taxed. So he can make all the gold he wants, but all but min wage is taken away from him by the Supernatural Gains Tax

Harry Dresden can charge normal PI type rates (as if he were a mundane type PI) and its all good, but if he starts charging more than a mundane PI of his caliber, trouble

This is helpfully controlled by the Supernatural Tracking Center, a blacker than black US government organization, with friendly ties to the IRS
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:09 AM   #6
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Default Re: Balancing Magic A and Magic B

The attribute changing would affect a lot. You might have mister strong tank casting Realm magic with ST while missus thief is using the average of her Per and Will to cast Magic as Powers and another using HT to bolster their own bodies with subtle magic.

Just my two cents. I like the idea.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:57 AM   #7
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Default Re: Balancing Magic A and Magic B

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel_gudman View Post
The premise is, a Wainscott setting--magic is hidden.
In this case, you definitely want to give all the characters a UB - probably a hefty one - to balance the fact that they can sling spells.

Balance it, partially, with a hefty Secret to be replaced by serious Duty and/or Enemies if they don't keep the secret.

If it's "anything goes" for magic, you should probably require different types of Magery for each system of magic you can use. Possibly require an additional UB for access to really unbalanced or highly effective magic, or access to certain spells or types of spells.

My somewhat dated take on a wainscot fantasy setting here:

http://www.sabledrake.com/2002/0205_harry_potter1.shtml
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:30 AM   #8
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Default Re: Balancing Magic A and Magic B

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
In this case, you definitely want to give all the characters a UB - probably a hefty one - to balance the fact that they can sling spells.

Balance it, partially, with a hefty Secret to be replaced by serious Duty and/or Enemies if they don't keep the secret.

If it's "anything goes" for magic, you should probably require different types of Magery for each system of magic you can use. Possibly require an additional UB for access to really unbalanced or highly effective magic, or access to certain spells or types of spells.

My somewhat dated take on a wainscot fantasy setting here:

http://www.sabledrake.com/2002/0205_harry_potter1.shtml
Oh, hey, I still use that. Have you considered updating it to 4th? It doens't play perfectly, but it is fun.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:15 AM   #9
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Default Re: Balancing Magic A and Magic B

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Oh, hey, I still use that. Have you considered updating it to 4th? It doens't play perfectly, but it is fun.
Yes. I've considered updating it to 4e many times.

GURPS Harry Potter covered the first four books.

To bring it up to date I'd have to go through three mighty tomes line by line to pick out all the new spells, gadgets and creatures and then convert them to GURPS stats.

Then I'd have to convert all the characters to 4e and bring them up to date.

And I've have to stat out about a dozen important new characters (like all the members of the Order of the Phoenix, plus several different Ministers of Magic and assorted lesser villains like Dolores Umbridge).

Then I'd have to try to find all the fan-based material which fills in details that JKR only mentioned in interviews.

Then I'd have to figure out how much of the Harry Potter stuff at Universal Studios theme park is actually canonical.

Then I'd have to go through the plethora of games stuff which is marginally canonical and determine what actually fits into the setting.

Then I'd have to try to cram all the stuff that JKR threw in because she thought it would be good for a laugh or make a good story into rules which are consistent with a balanced roleplaying setting.

And then, I come to my senses and consider all the more rewarding things I could do with my life, like moving all the Sahara desert using just a pair of tweezers, brokering a lasting peace between all nations, or trying to find an honest politician.

Seriously, the setting has gotten big enough and flaky enough that it's best left for a committee and it's better suited to a much looser and more flexible system than GURPS

I've updated some of the stuff and I've got a lot of other projects going which are magic related, but it's not going to be Harry Potter for a long time.

Maybe when JKR gets around to releasing the Harry Potter Encyclopedia she promised. . .
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Balancing Magic A and Magic B

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Yes. I've considered updating it to 4e many times.

<snip>

And then, I come to my senses and consider all the more rewarding things I could do with my life, like moving all the Sahara desert using just a pair of tweezers, brokering a lasting peace between all nations, or trying to find an honest politician.
Ow. Just ow. You just hurt my brain. I've had pretty lofty goals (rping an mmorpg was probably the loftiest). I might consider doing this myself, but I'd take a fresh look at everything, trying to see what the core of the system works like. Things like Words might fit better.

And yes, I've had moments where I felt like I'd rather do any of those. Sometimes, I have to remember I don't have to reinvent the wheel.
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