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Old 03-31-2014, 11:12 PM   #21
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

The biggest problem with the usually awesome arm lock is that it takes so darn long. Parry on your foe's turn. Apply arm lock on your own. Damage next turn.

There's an optional rule in TG that lets "attack" sub in for "turn." This turns Extra Attack 1 into a real bonus for you, since you can lock and damage in one turn. Technically, Fairbarn Close Combat System has a lock-and-damage (or maybe even lock, throw, and damage) Combination that technically isn't rules-legal - but it does establish a precedent.

Any way you can get a lock-and-throw or lock-and-damage Combination on your sheet is sheer cussed awesomeness, because it allows swing damage (plus a Wrestling bonus if you have one!).

With the Trained ST bonuses for Judo in TG, you'll be looking at a damage from an arm lock of swing+1, which for ST 14 is 2d+1. That's 8 points average, enough to cripple the limb of a foe with ST/HP 15.

I will admit I missed your guy's stat block the first time. If you can get that lock/throw combo in with him as rules legal, you may choose one foe and do a lock (vs Judo-18) and throw (again, your Judo-18 in a Quick Contest).

Again, this requires GM permission because the lock and throw are RAW required to happen on different turns (MA p. 118 is quite clear on that).

Now, on the other hand, there should be much less issue with a lock and damage vs a lock and throw due to the biomechanics involved (though again, RAW MA p. 65 is darn clear about NEXT turn) - but on this one I personally am more likely to be lenient, since many joint locks, properly applied, are a twitch away from breaking the joint anyway. That one is less likely to cripple, but does damage equal to margin of victory on the QC.
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:13 PM   #22
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

I should add that all of this depends on the GM playing fair. It's hard to imagine a situation where a well-trained PC is outnumbered and unable to flee. The GM should have let that training give a warning . . . that's what things like Soldier and Tactics skills are for, and why "elite" soldiers like Perception so much. Remember the arms-deal scene in Ronin, and Sam's reaction to it? That's exactly what I'm talking about.

If the GM isn't giving a warning, then it's a setup the PC isn't supposed to avoid. That probably isn't the fairest or wisest piece of storytelling ever, since the GM is treating the well-trained veteran like a mook who would just walk into a trap (Spence, in my example), and the player would have every right to be unhappy about that. However, if the player really screwed up and ignored all the warnings – or if the GM made the warnings dependent on rolls vs. skills or Per, and the dice weren't nice – well, fair's far.

Even then, though, the GM should still play mookish gang members with next-to-no combat skills realistically, not as fearless kill-bots. If one of them gets crushed on Turn One, the others will hesitate. If the scary PC does really well on Intimidation before the fight is afoot, the goons might back off, or at least string out as the ones who made good Will rolls advance while their scared colleagues hang back. And even if they're brave, they're not going to be professionally sealing all exits and flanking like pros unless they have Tactics (and, if the GM is being fair, beat the PC in a Quick Contest of Tactics); rather, they're going to be rushing in to deliver a curb-stomping.

If the first warning the player gets is heavies walking out of the shadows at a time when the PC is alone and unarmed, yet somehow not on alert, in a deserted locale with enough concealment to hide enemies . . . if the thugs won't listen to words, and keep coming no matter how many of them go down . . . if random hoodlums with Brawling-10 somehow disperse in a way that lets them corner the PC, take his flanks, and block all escape routes . . . well, that's Death By GM. There's no ability that works against it.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:56 AM   #23
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
But if a strong, fit, well trained combat veteran cannot effectively deal with 2 to 4 Brawling 10 street punks, then I figured I must be making poor choices with my maneuvers/techniques/tactics rather than the fact that a core conceit of GURPS is that you just cannot do it without cinematic rules/buddies/guns.
I'd note weapons is not the same thing as guns.

One of the problems with fighting the punks unarmed is that you have to take hit location penalties if you want to be able to land decisive hits. Which you need to do, because a battering match won't go well for you.

If you had a big knife or a decent stick, you could threaten Major Wounds on ordinary attacks, or even on damage-penalized Defensive Attacks. This might be in your favor even if they have weapons too, because you needed to avoid letting them land hits anyway. Also, having any reach 1 weapon is a big improvement compared to being stuck with a reach C fist or reach 1 kick.

And of course proper non-firearm butt-kicking kit includes armor and usually a shield, a weapon with reach, or both, which goes a long way to giving you options against a mook pack.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:03 AM   #24
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
And of course proper non-firearm butt-kicking kit includes armor and usually a shield, a weapon with reach, or both, which goes a long way to giving you options against a mook pack.
Bingo.

The PC fighter in my group has repeatedly shown that he can casually slaughter his way through hordes of mooks (as in low-threat combatants, 10-ish stats and 14-ish skills; we don't actually use the mook rules).

In a relatively realistic low-fantasy game, Parry-15 (thanks to Broadsword-18, Combat Reflexes and a medium shield) plus Targeted Attack (Broadsword Cut, Neck)-16 is extremely effective. He offed a dozen pirates in the last big fight, and before that he chewed up countless numbers of weak pseudo-zombies during the dungeon bash, all while barely taking a scratch (despite his armour being only around DR4).

But during the session after the pirate attack, while strolling through town without his sword/shield/armour, he got jumped in an alleyway by a trio of mid-threat (ST-13, skill-15) street thugs. He had the sense to try and run, but some bad dice luck let the thugs hold him up long enough to swarm, and once they got him down it was all over. If they'd been looking to kill instead of capture, he'd be dead.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:09 AM   #25
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

Make sure your initiative is better than the mooks.

Make sure your Move is better than the mooks. That example up-thread of the Step of 2 is nasty. I like it.

Retreat constantly. If you look around on YouTube for martial arts demos where one master is fighting several students the masters almost invariably are stepping backwards to keep all opponents in the front arc if they do not have a weapon.

Having an opponent by one arm occasionally counts as a weapon because if you swing the mook around through a couple bordering hexes this will tend to make other mooks Retreat a space or two to avoid hitting their friend. Note that it does slow you down and let them get past you.

Improvised weapons if you don't have a real knife or quarterstaff. Something as simple as an average leather belt or pool cue will, when hitting the face, at range 1 or 2, deliver that one point of damage to the head that triggers a Knockdown check. They will most likely get up again, but for a round or two at least they are out of the brawl.

Dirt or whatever is available in the face. If it works that target is out several rounds clearing their eyes.

Kicks or weapon strikes Targeted Attack Technique to the legs and feet. Every one of them that loses Move (even a little bit) makes your tactics easier.

Never, ever, ever stop moving. Fake moving one way and then move another constantly.
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Old 04-01-2014, 05:30 AM   #26
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

A lot of this is going to depend on how smart the GM plays these guys. The only way one chap can beat 4 is if the four doing something really stupid or the 1 gets to fight four chaps one at time* (and even then he has to be good enough to do this or hope some run away)

*and that as has been said involves isolating them, using the terrain etc, in ways that we can't help you with short of sitting next to you at the table when it happens. But yes anything that will help with this like better move, retreating etc is key.

Ultimately if you are truly surrounded, no way out, no available options to isolate you foes, no time limit. You pretty screwed, so I'd actually go with high risk but quick damaging intimidating strategies to see if you scare off the opponents, AoA to locations with good knockdown mods (face/head).

Hopefully following a couple of seconds of evaluating to maximise that first strike impact (both on the chap's face and on his mate's perceptions of the situation)

The longer term defensive strategy while a better bet relies too much on positioning so is moot of you can't do it.

This will of course depends on who is attacking you, and what they want. But ultimately you want them to consider you too much trouble to deal with even if they 'know' ultimately they can.

Ultimately they win because they outnumber you, if you get lucky and take one or two out quickly like this you've evened the odds somewhat and if you even luckier hopefully they haven't dog-piled you or you've taken too many hits.

That stat line is pretty good with 14hps 13HT, v.fit you'll take some punishment before you fall over**. But this still high risk and while you might dissuade some inexperienced chaps from robbing you, anyone professional will just use the opening you give them to finish the fight.

Sad to sad from a role-playing POV the result of a boxed in situation like this is as much about the guys surrounding you than it is about you.

**You'd want them then to try and trade blows with you, they all jump on you at once and its over.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-01-2014 at 06:05 AM.
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Old 04-01-2014, 07:09 AM   #27
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

For what it's worth, I'm totally fine with the scenario. You can't always decide to fight or not, or decide to flee or not, or access a weapon. Sometimes there is someone to protect, foes that need to be delayed, and laws and lack of opportunities that restrict access to weaponry. You might need to try to win even if the odds say you probably won't.

It's not ideal to fight one vs. many, but I do think it's getting a little overstated here - you are potentially talking a gang of untrained thugs vs. a ST 14, DX 13, HT 13, Karate-18 guy with Combat Reflexes and presumably Speed 6.5 and Move 6. That PC might get hurt, and fighting multiple foes isn't ideal, but it's not automatically fatal given good tactical sense and a lack of bad rolling. Given progressively more skilled foes, and more organized foes, and the risk goes up dramatically. But it's not an automatic loss.

Generally, you should follow Kromm's advice.

Still:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
However, the core concepts are never stepping nearer to a foe,
. . . this is the only one I sort-of disagree on. When facing multiple foes, it doesn't matter if you step closer to a foe. It matters if you step closer to multiple foes. Closing with someone to strike or otherwise take advantage of a brief one-on-one fight is a great move. It's how you are going to win the fight - on paper, the character in the OP is pretty capable and against less-skilled opponents he just really needs a lot of one-on-ones to give him the best chance to win.

You just want to avoid stepping close to one foe if it means you'll be closer to others. If it doesn't, and it gives you some tactical advantage, take it.

So I'd restate that as "never step closer to multiple foes; only step closer to single foes to take some advantage, and only if it doesn't put you into the reach of other foes." Less pithy and eloquent, but it's true.
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:21 AM   #28
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

Mobility and positioning being key, if you're using Extra Effort in Combat, then Giant Step and Heroic Charge are going to be your bestest friends, both allowing you to attack normally while keeping your distance.
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:49 AM   #29
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

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Mobility and positioning being key, if you're using Extra Effort in Combat, then Giant Step and Heroic Charge are going to be your bestest friends, both allowing you to attack normally while keeping your distance.
What is to stop them from using the same options to corner you?
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:52 AM   #30
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

Another threshold that may make a world of difference: if the GM decides these thugs are a real bunch of amateurs and runs them according to the untrained fighter guidance from Martial Arts, where they randomly switch between All out Attack and All out Defense, well, now we're talking decisive skill advantage. They probably won't all rush you at once, so they're much less able to overwhelm your defenses. You can meet the ones that do with an All out Defense, and then use Telegraphic attacks to brutal effect on the ones who exposed themselves.

These would be people who are in way over their head in any real fight (as opposed to a gang-beating of a victim who can't resist effectively), and not the sort of thugs anyone would want to employ if they had a choice. But you can probably take twice as many of them as of even the most marginal real fighters.

Though if you have four guys roll 'all out attack' on the same turn, you are likely to be hurt.
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