03-31-2014, 12:28 PM | #11 | |
Fightin' Round the World
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
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- Use your mobility - especially if you can reduce the mobility of the attackers through injury or just getting in each others' way. This can be using full Move actions to run and hopefully get the opponents strung out in a line. - Don't get stuck in place. Strikes are better than grapples for this, since you want both of your arms for Parries. Sweeps are okay, too, because they can leverage your skill to get you more mobility. - Fight defensively - and this can include Defensive Attack - and worry most about maximizing your defenses instead of taking someone out. Only get really aggressive (Committed Attack, All-Out Attack) if you've got no other option. - Retreat when it serves to string your opponents out. - Try to Intimidate your opponents, especially if you can pretty horrifyingly take one out (we call this the "bite his ear off and spit it at his friends" move.) If you can take someone out and then do this, try it. - get a weapon if you can. By the way, this applies to armed combat, too, assuming you've basically got the same reach as your opponents and aren't forced to get aggressive to close and strike. Two things I forgot: - consider hitting extremities - Over HP/4 cripples, and that's not that much. Aggressive Parry is a good way to start, but if you can smash a hand or foot your opponent will have to deal with Stunning and Knockdown, cutting the odds against you down momentarily or permanently. - Feint is really useful, and doesn't commit you to anything. Use it to ensure your strikes hit. Better a few that land than a lot that don't.
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Peter V. Dell'Orto aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD My Author Page My S&C Blog My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog "You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev Last edited by Peter V. Dell'Orto; 03-31-2014 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Forgot stuff |
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03-31-2014, 01:41 PM | #12 | ||||
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
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I'm not talking through my hat. I run a high-powered secret-agents campaign that skirts the borders between "realistic" (no cinematic or superhuman abilities, no superscience, no paranormal phenomena, all "harsh realism" options in effect) and "cinematic" (mandatory Luck, plus high point totals devoted to improbably high skill levels and breadth of training). My signature contains a link to recaps of events there, and I think those accounts fairly convey the feel of the game. Anyway, even there, the only way the ace fighters defeat multiple foes is by (1) having their teammates run interference for them, grappling, slamming, and otherwise confusing the issue, (2) ambushing their rivals, and/or (3) procuring a weapon as soon as possible. If you must do things the hard way (and yes, sometimes I force the PCs in my game to do that), Peter has great advice: Quote:
The only further comment I would make is that you avoid anything with an elevated risk of causing you to fall down. Obviously, you can't avoid critical misses without Luck, and there's little you can do about successful enemy throws or Sweeps . . . but you can avoid kicks that could miss and leave you flat on your back, him-or-me close-combat moves such as standard Basic Set takedowns, and Move and Attack maneuvers that penalize rolls to stay standing. Alternating "Feint and step back, let him rush, then a Defensive Attack punch as a Deceptive Attack to a random hit location and step back" works well. Take the Defensive Attack bonus to your hand parry, and use that against your enemy or one of his allies. Claim the retreat bonus against and move away from another of his allies. If things get too hot, there's no harm in using Move to string out your enemies. This might encourage them to Move and Attack (a great chance to land a hit on them!) or slam (which sets up Trip).
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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03-31-2014, 02:13 PM | #13 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
The firs tthing I'd throw in here is consider getting the Feint technique and a combination if you can afford it. Rapid Striking in a non-cinematic game is usually a mug's game, because the -6 penalty is crippling, and doing it with a Feint is awful. However, if you have Feint-22 and Combination: Feint + Judo Throw with 3 points of attack penalty bought off, you could Parry someone, then feint against a respectable 19 and make the judo throw at 13 with a mild Deceptive Attack giving them a -1 to defend. Against skill-14 foes, you'd effectively be dropping their Parry from 8 or 9 to 4 or 5, which means those judo throws will go through and they're much more likely to end up on the ground.
If you also grab Arm Lock as a maxed out technique... well, you're a bit points inefficient, but even without a combo, you can rapid strike a feint and arm lock at 16 each, so if you manage to isolate one guy, you can grab him, lock him, wrestle him for a few seconds until you succeed in a throw from a lock, and then run away from any of his pals that have caught up and repeat the cycle. The other thing you should strongly consider is Peripheral Vision (if you don't have it already). I'd strongly consider dropping Very Fit down to Fit to get Peripheral Vision. On a many against one fight, Peripheral Vision means that the bad guys can't get free hits in from behind and limits the number of them that can get flank bonuses. It's a huge advantage in those situations.
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03-31-2014, 02:30 PM | #14 | |
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Portsmouth, VA, USA
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
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So my advice is this: don't. If you can help it, just don't. If you can't, fight with everything you got and make every hit count. Go for high-value targets (knees are a personal favorite), spit, bite, throw things, and keep moving if you can. That last one is important, unless you are in an easily defensible area (doorways, higher-ground on a set of stairs, etc.) or know the area well, just keep moving. The last thing you want is to get cornered. Especially with a small mob of people out for your blood. That's one of the first things you learn when working a parking lot as a bouncer. Do not get cornered - you will regret it. Try to separate your targets too so they can't rush you. Again, going for the legs, foot, knees, are going to be your best bet - testicles too. There is no such thing as a fair fight - it's the winner and the loser.
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03-31-2014, 08:23 PM | #15 |
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
Thanks for all of the great feedback. There are certainly some thought-provoking suggestions here.
However, I feel like maybe I didn't do a very good job of articulating what I was looking for. So let me take another stab at clearing up some of the haze in this thread so we can get down to brass tacks. 1. "Being outnumbered sucks." I never meant to imply otherwise. But like it or not, it will likely happen in a GURPS campaign. And without super powers or cinematic rules, there still HAS to be a way of improving your odds of coming out on the other side of such encounter in a non dead/unconscious/hospitalized state. 2. Yes, when faced with superior numbers, the smart thing to do is run. I thought I did a good job of explaining that I understand this. It is the tactically smart thing to do. But what if you can't? HOW do you cope with that situation when running, for whatever reason, is NOT an option? Saying "well you should just run" doesn't really help. 3. "Don't do it, you WILL lose." Okay...so you are telling me that if you were playing a GURPS campaign and found yourself in the scenario I spelled out in my original post, you'd simply lie down on the ground and go fetal? Even if you are doomed to lose, you'd do SOMETHING, right? Make some effort to defend yourself or at least take as many bastards as you could with you, right? So HOW would you do that? 4. "Stay mobile and don't let them surround you." That's fantastic advice, but it's so generic as to not be really all that helpful. HOW do you do that, mechanically, in GURPS? Kromm and a few others actually articulated some examples like Feint, step, defensive attack, retreat, etc. THAT sort of feedback is what I was looking for. Sorry if I wasn't more clear in my original post. I know that pulling a Jason Bourne requires some very cinematic rules/options. I never said that I expected to be able to reproduce scenes from The Raid: Redemption, nor has that even been by goal. But if a strong, fit, well trained combat veteran cannot effectively deal with 2 to 4 Brawling 10 street punks, then I figured I must be making poor choices with my maneuvers/techniques/tactics rather than the fact that a core conceit of GURPS is that you just cannot do it without cinematic rules/buddies/guns. |
03-31-2014, 09:04 PM | #16 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
I think they key takeaway, which you clearly received, is that even a strong, fit, and well trained guy is going to require a lot of luck facing a certain type of foe.
It's also going to depend a bit on what you mean by "strong, fit, and trained." Are we talking, say, ST 13, DX 12, HT 11 + Fit, and (say) two fighting skills, maybe Karate and Judo, at DX+2 for 14-? OK, that's not bad, a capable foe. The SEALS in Vietnam template with the "Unarmed Combat Instructor" lens only gets Brawling-14 and Judo-12! So with two combat skils at 14, you're an "entry level butt kicker." from the post above, here's what I said about that: Quote:
Skill-14 Attack: You still can't hit someone in the face more than 50% of the time without resorting to Attack Options, but you can grapple a limb 83% of the time, or strike to break an elbow or knee 75% without resorting to attack options. By taking a small penalty to defend and electing Committed Attack, you attack at a near-certainty. However, if you're outnumbered, by and large your attacks will be Defensive, not Committed and certainly not All-Out. Defense: Raw Parry and Block is now 50% (Parry/Block-10), and with Combat Reflexes (+1), Enhanced Parry (probably +1 if at all), Defensive Attack (+1) and and a retreat (+3 with Judo or Karate) and you're adding a whopping Parry-16 or Parry-17. Effectively, at this point, lacking a skilled opponent or critical hit, you're barely touchable if you go All Turtle, All The Time. The issue with multiple foes is that while yo do get one parry per hand (two total), that third and fourth attacker are at -4 (again, per hand), and you may only retreat against one foe. So your defenses are likely something like: Parry1: Stand your ground, right hand, Parry-12 (75%) Parry2: Stand your ground, left hand, Parry-12 (75%) Parry3: Retreat, right hand, -4 for second parry: Parry-11 (62%) Parry4: Stand your ground, left hand, Parry-8 (25%) or Dodge-10 (50%) Parry4+ then is all Dodge, probably at Dodge-10 if you bought up your Speed/Move properly. +1 for Combat Reflexes. Even with "only" three attacks, you've got about a one in three chance of not getting hit each turn. That fourth attack means you're getting hit five times in six. From that perspective, whittling down your foes to three and then two is really key, and if you can retreat vs your first guy and put him the hell down, that turns into Parry-15, Parry-17 with AoD, enough to Riposte and lower his chance to resist a Judo Throw or crippling leg shot. My instinct, though optimization experts will chime in, is to guess you'll be taking AoD half-moves with +2 to Dodge (still only 12-, but 12 or less vs everything that turn) to try and string your foes out, then AoD (Parry) and Riposte to max out a Judo Parry, then either Judo Throw (an attack, with your foe suffering a Riposte penalty perhaps) or a crippling karate strike to a limb. While arm locks and throws from locks seem tempting, I suspect they'll get you pounded if you're in the parking lot alluded to earlier. Judo-18 Now, if you happen to be in the Judo-18 territory, then your base Parry (with CR, Retreat, and AoD/Parry) is Parry-18, or Parry-15 without the retreat. So now you can stand your ground vs more guys with much higher certainty, and your ripostes, vs mookish foes, can carry real issues. Retreat vs. the first guy and stick that bonus to parry into a Riposte, and then some. Parry-14 and a -4 Riposte vs that first attacker, and he's probably Parry-6 or so. Your Judo Throw is near-certain to land, and then you need to take a turn or two - probably two - to leave the area at a half-move per turn (AoD/Dodge). If you've stunned the first guy, he will take two turns to get to standing plus whatever time he takes to unstun. Maybe one half-move to clear the region and then another Parry to set up another Judo throw.
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My blog:Gaming Ballistic, LLC My Store: Gaming Ballistic on Shopify My Patreon: Gaming Ballistic on Patreon Last edited by DouglasCole; 03-31-2014 at 09:14 PM. |
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03-31-2014, 09:13 PM | #17 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
One of the better investments you could make would be Move 11, if the GM will permit; a Step (and Retreat) of 2 is a big advantage for turning that many-to-one fight into a series of one-to-one fights.
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03-31-2014, 10:00 PM | #18 | ||
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
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You have three worthwhile defenses: two parries (at 13) and one retreating dodge (also at 13). As long as you can keep them from attacking more than three times a round, they're going to hit you about once for every six successful strikes - and if they're hitting with Brawling 10, that's about once every twelve attempted attacks. They have active defenses of 8, or 11 with a retreating dodge. But your average damage, with ST 14 and high Karate, is 3.5 per punch - not enough to cripple a limb, and you don't have enough skill to attempt skull hits. With a deceptive attack to the torso, you can expect to hit about 2/3 of the time (considering their defense). At that rate, for every hit you take, you will have inflicted about 2 1/2ish, for an average of 9 total points of damage, which will almost knock one out (though you might have to wait a couple seconds for them to drop). With HT 14, you can take 10 points of damage before slowing down, which is about 5 of their hits - but note that by that time you should have dropped about 4 of them. If that means that at some point you're facing less than three attempted attacks a round, your advantage increases considerably. Alternately, if you use kicks and aim for the legs, you'll have about a 1-in-3 chance to hit, and about a 1-in-6 to cripple. A guy with a crippled leg is probably effectively out of this fight, which means that you can take out one of them almost every time one hits you. This is, of course, a very simplistic view of how the fight could go. Defensive attacks and alternating between feints and attacks might help, if they're stupid enough to keep falling for the feints. Quote:
Last edited by Xplo; 03-31-2014 at 10:03 PM. |
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03-31-2014, 10:36 PM | #19 | ||||||
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
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GURPS depends largely on the player looking at the foes and the scenery on the map, selecting the best maneuvers and movement paths, and hoping that his choices work. There's no purpose-built "Group Tactics" ability or combat option in the game that one can point to and say, "Use this." Or to be precise, the abilities for fighting groups are extra attacks and defenses, which are almost all cinematic. If those aren't on the table, then it really does boil down to "follow this general advice, but your PC is risking death regardless."
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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03-31-2014, 10:44 PM | #20 | |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents
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— Granted, that approach is borderline-realistic. I'd call such a person cinematic. However, the game doesn't put the brakes on until you've bought +2.00 to Basic Speed and +3 to Basic Move, so even a DX 12, HT 12 warrior who starts with Basic Speed 6.00 can get up to Basic Speed 8.00, Basic Move 11, and a step of 2. A rules lawyer would be hard-pressed to argue against that. With Move 11, you can run backward as fast as normal people can run forward, and you can actually turn, run, and open up a lead against normal and even slightly faster-than-normal people in just a one Move maneuver. You can retreat two yards if someone runs up for a slam. And you can dart in, tag people, and dart back without giving ground. It's a huge advantage! Personally, I find Extra Attack 1 more plausible than the warrior-sprinter, but the OP's GM might not. Of course, I'd permit Extra Attack 1 in any campaign that allows "realistic" combat veterans to have Judo-18 and Karate-18 . . . Even the baddest modern-day badasses don't train anywhere near enough to be that capable, whereas being cool enough under fire and coordinated enough to get off extra shots is almost exactly what such people do train for. Remember, Extra Attack 1 doesn't mean you're literally twice as fast; it's an abstraction that means your OODA loop is tighter and you do more useful stuff in the time allotted.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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martial arts, technical grappling |
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