Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Kromm

This is an important, oft-overlooked point!

My tango prof probably weighs 100 lbs. soaking wet . . . she's so tiny that if I botch a step, I can pick her up without even meaning to do so. She's also all muscle in a way that only a career circus performer, dancer, and Pilates instructor can be after a few decades. I'm certain that if she deigned to do something as unladylike as wrestle, she could defeat most 100-lb. women on the street. This manifests as DX, in my view – DX for Dancing, for Acrobatics, and for Wrestling. Involving ST is a red herring.

Strength-to-mass ratios range through a relatively narrow band for humans, much like GURPS DX, while absolute strength is highly extrinsic, much like GURPS ST. What complicates things is that DX also abstracts balance, hand-eye coordination, flexibility, and reaction speed, much as IQ abstracts tons of unrelated stuff. I'd simply say, "A high power-to-mass ratio is one way out of several to justify good DX," and leave it at that. I definitely wouldn't worry about involving ST, not even Arm ST or Lifting ST.

I think ultimately there is a lot of overlap when it comes to a lot of for want of a better term "whole body activities".

Something reinforced by as you say the wide ranging nature of GURPS stats.

Because I agree that some traditionally dexterous moves will inherently require good Strength (or more accurately good strength to weight).

Take walking on your hands, obviously it requires good strength to weight, but it also requires good balance. And it doesn't matter how good you balance is if you lack the St to support you weight on your hands you won't be walking on you hands.

A great gymnast will have suburb Strength to weight, but if he loses his inner ear he's not going to be doing a great floor show, but he'd probably be able to keep going on rings reasonable well. (talking of rings, lots of upper body strength on those guys that you don't normally see on more generalist gymnasts).

Anyway this ramble is just me basically agreeing with you point that DX, ST are not wholly distinct abilities, and how they interact has more to do with what you are attempting then their inherent characteristics and derivation.

In a way i find it easier to limit some aspects of stats when modelling this, which means I keep the element of St that gymnasts are using and ditch the elements they wouldn't have developed, or even would even have a negative impact (which is why I tend to have gymnasts with higher than usual ST for their weight, but not the HPs or damage ability to go with it which would be harder to justify a lack of weight). But equally you could as you say just decide that bit of high Strength to weight manifests in GURPS terms as your higher than average DX.

Originally Posted by aesir23

It's important not to overlook the fact that ST 14 comes with HP 14. Hit points are absolutely a measure of mass. That's why they effect your inertia and momentum (Slam damage, Falling Damage, etc...).

So if you want "strong for your size" it's usually more accurate to buy some Lifting and Striking St.

Hmm HP is a measure or representative of lots of things and they overlap, but it also means it not a true representation of any one thing. As pointed out the inherent characteristics of the thing with the HP's is also a factor. Even if it's not in total HPs but in how those HPs are affected by different sources of damage

[Railstar]

I wonder how much Aggressive Parry would work in this scenario. I know the damage is not exactly great, but the longer the fight goes on the more difference it might make, and imposing a shock penalty the next round could help give a little more survivability.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Railstar

I wonder how much Aggressive Parry would work in this scenario. I know the damage is not exactly great, but the longer the fight goes on the more difference it might make, and imposing a shock penalty the next round could help give a little more survivability.

Maybe but the longer the fight goes on unless the individual has got great position advantage the more it favours the group. Because the group has combined resources that can withstand a longer fight e.g. the freedom to recover from shock, HPs (and APs if being used).

Don't get me wrong a long fight can work if the individual is using that time to isolate and pick off each member of the group individually. But a long drawn out fight that involves the individual surrounded by a group favours the group, because assuming the group use reasonable tactics they can run the individual ragged while splitting the work between them and their individually lower reserves.

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by Railstar

I wonder how much Aggressive Parry would work in this scenario. I know the damage is not exactly great, but the longer the fight goes on the more difference it might make, and imposing a shock penalty the next round could help give a little more survivability.

For what it's worth, I tried Aggressive Parry once during the scenario that prompted me to start this threat. Check it out here.

Even with ST 14 and a +2 to dmg from a high level of Karate, the 1d-2 dmg ended up with 0. And for the mooks I was facing, I would have needed to roll a 5 or 6 on dmg to cripple the hand.

Maybe if you are really strong, Aggressive Parry has a good payoff. But it was just too much of a sacrifice to lower my Parry by 1 for each attack for only about a 55% to inflict any damage at all.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

For what it's worth, I tried Aggressive Parry once during the scenario that prompted me to start this threat. Check it out here.

Even with ST 14 and a +2 to dmg from a high level of Karate, the 1d-2 dmg ended up with 0. And for the mooks I was facing, I would have needed to roll a 5 or 6 on dmg to cripple the hand.

Maybe if you are really strong, Aggressive Parry has a good payoff. But it was just too much of a sacrifice to lower my Parry by 1 for each attack for only about a 55% to inflict any damage at all.

66%?

Aggressive Parry may look a bit better for a leg parry, with boots on...

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

For what it's worth, I tried Aggressive Parry once during the scenario that prompted me to start this threat. Check it out here.

Even with ST 14 and a +2 to dmg from a high level of Karate, the 1d-2 dmg ended up with 0. And for the mooks I was facing, I would have needed to roll a 5 or 6 on dmg to cripple the hand.

Maybe if you are really strong, Aggressive Parry has a good payoff. But it was just too much of a sacrifice to lower my Parry by 1 for each attack for only about a 55% to inflict any damage at all.

Thanks! And thanks to Tomsdad too.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Railstar

Thanks! And thanks to Tomsdad too.

No probs.

Cheers

TD

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

66%?

Aggressive Parry may look a bit better for a leg parry, with boots on...

Math fail on my part. 66% is right. It's still not good. 1/3 chance to do no damage for a 10% reduction in my chance to actually parry the strike.

But I do agree that a Jam with boots would be 1d, assuming ST 14 and Karate at DX+1 or better.

Can you do an aggressive parry with your leg/foot vs. a punch?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Can you do an aggressive parry with your leg/foot vs. a punch?

Only if the punch is a low-line attack. The valid locations you can protect with a Jam are listed under the Jam technique.