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Old 01-06-2019, 12:06 PM   #31
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

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Originally Posted by Purple Snit View Post
Which is more important; playing the system to get the best use of my points, or building the character I'm trying to/want to build, even if I spend more than I could?
My experience is that a certain amount in inefficiency in character builds is okay, but too much leads to problems because it's unlikely that everyone's characters will be equally inefficient. That can lead to some players feeling like they've got a gimpy character, and that tends to reduce enjoyment of the game. It also can make the GM's job harder, result in the more optimised PCs encroaching on other PC's niches, and so on.

How much of a problem this is depends on the group, point totals, and many other things, but it can be an issue. I just don't think it's nearly the problem that the original poster seems to. I also think that people who claim that attributes equal 'natural talent' and points in skills equal 'training' are incorrect. Attributes also represent broad training and the ability to transfer and generalise training across many skills, and points in skills can be natural talent as well as training. Talents are explicitly natural talent, as are some advantages, but not much else is explicitly one thing or the other.
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Old 01-06-2019, 01:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

Is a character "inefficient" if it's doing what I want it to do? If two people make martial artists, and one optimizes the hell out of the system, while the other doesn't, then, yes, you will have issue where one can do more for the points. But the system isn't "broken" just because there are multiple ways to look at something - your goals might be very different from mine.
I recently tried running a d20-based campaign with several first-time role-players [because they had heard of it and wanted to try it]. They almost immediately started asking if they could raise certain skills [such as bow, shield, sneaking, and so on] with training, and were disappointed when I said, "Sorry, you only go up in skill when you go up in level, and then it's all-or-nothing" [I'm over-simplifying here for brevity].
We switched to GURPS [my go-to system], and they have been very happy with the options they now have for character specialization, development, and skill-use. I didn't have to ride them to make their characters "efficient" - they all turned in concept-based characters with good backgrounds, and built them from there. It all depends on what you're looking for.
But "buy up your stat to save points" shouldn't be the motivation. If you want a skilled gunsmith and marksman, then spend points in appropriate skills, don't buy an Olympic-level DX to make it cheaper to get the same numbers.
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Old 01-06-2019, 02:16 PM   #33
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

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What do you think? Do you think that it a balanced house rule or a broken one? What would you change about it?
If you want people to run to skills rather than attributes then I think it'll work.

But I can't say I like the idea of granting free Character Points for spending Character Points, even if they're limited in how they can be spent. If nothing else it starts to become a mess of point-accounting.
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Old 01-06-2019, 02:39 PM   #34
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

Perhaps then it should be that every CP invested in skills and techniques allows for one CP to be invested in abilities (rather than giving them for free).
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Old 01-06-2019, 03:40 PM   #35
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

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Perhaps then it should be that every CP invested in skills and techniques allows for one CP to be invested in abilities (rather than giving them for free).
So are you saying if they don't invest in skills they can't take those abilities at all?

That'd work fine, in my limited estimation. But I'm not sure it solves your problem unless your players really like buying those abilities.
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Old 01-06-2019, 04:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

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We switched to GURPS [my go-to system], and they have been very happy with the options they now have for character specialization, development, and skill-use. I didn't have to ride them to make their characters "efficient" - they all turned in concept-based characters with good backgrounds, and built them from there. It all depends on what you're looking for.
But "buy up your stat to save points" shouldn't be the motivation. If you want a skilled gunsmith and marksman, then spend points in appropriate skills, don't buy an Olympic-level DX to make it cheaper to get the same numbers.
In my experience that works nicely for low-moderate point values and concepts that don't strain the point budget. From what others have said it also works reasonably well for super campaigns, probably because they tend to be power/advantage based rather than relying heavily on skills. However, when you have a concept like 'well-rounded landed knight' or 'warrior-mage', and a relatively limited number of points to build them in, if you don't optimise (and specialise, obviously), you won't get what you want, let alone be able to keep up your end in a party of half-decently built lower-class scum warriors and pure mages.
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Old 01-06-2019, 05:12 PM   #37
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

That's not quite what I mean by "optimize" - you obviously need to focus on the appropriate skills to play a Knight or wizard. I meant, don't buy higher stats just to save points if that isn't in keeping with your character design.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:46 AM   #38
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

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That's not quite what I mean by "optimize" - you obviously need to focus on the appropriate skills to play a Knight or wizard. I meant, don't buy higher stats just to save points if that isn't in keeping with your character design.
The thing is, because a knight, unlike a commoner, needs to spend a fair bit on Status (and possibly other advantages that reflect their station), and because a 'warrior-mage' has a spread focus, unless they have plenty of points, they have to be optimised in terms of attributes (and everything else) to be as good at general adventuring and mayhem, unless the rest of the party is very non-optimal in build or built with fewer points.
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:19 AM   #39
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

Sorry, you've misunderstood me. Buying knightly skills for a knight or wizard skills for a wizard isn't the issue; that sort of optimization is required. My objection is to "optimizing" your character by saving character points spent on skills by simply raising the underlying stat instead, when doing so isn't part of your character concept.
But I see this is getting off-topic, so now I've explained myself, I'll retire from this now.
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Old 01-07-2019, 05:43 PM   #40
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Default Re: Skills, Techniques, and Abilities

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My objection is to "optimizing" your character by saving character points spent on skills by simply raising the underlying stat instead, when doing so isn't part of your character concept.
I've heard that notion before, but I've always thought the opposite view was equally valid. Enough diverse experience is represented by higher attributes. For example, if you study a lot of different subjects you'll increase your overall knowledge rather than focusing on one skill. Likewise, if you do a lot of different physical activities, that generally helps you do new things better as well.
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