Some questions about 4E combat rules.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by qchap

So, I just don't understand the advantage of using it two-handed.

You can put a lot more force (so to speak) behind your blade when you're shoving it up against your foe's. That sort of corps-a-corps wrestling with weapons is certainly popular in the movies (and with steel in the movies, too).

In game terms, two-handed weapons get a +2 on disarm attempts ("Knocking a Weapon Away", B401). The rules should probably give you a similar advantage on Beats, but I haven't actually seen that in RAW. For that matter, Star Wars seems to suggest that 2H use does more damage than 1H use, so you might want to give force swords two different damage numbers (ridiculous and more ridiculous, which is probably why RAW doesn't bother). The original lightsabers are tangible as required, not just super cutting weapons, at cinematic convenience. But that's hard to quantify.

Technical Grappling has more detailed rules on armed grappling, if you actually want to wrestle with swords. Two hands are an advantage there.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That is DA +0, aka 'no deceptive attack'.

No, I am not talking about your table. I did the math for the assertion I made.

Originally Posted by qchap

Yes, I think that's the root of the problem. Having one skill is just too much easier than two.

So spitballing off some comments others have made...I wonder if it mightn't be not too out there to have a Melee Weapon skill (DX/A probably but not necessarily) that has no core function except maybe Feint roles and have all the extant Melee Weapon skills as Techniques off of it.

This probably would also call for some kind of re-arrangement of unarmed skills as well, which I'm not ready to propose. Probably not ranged skills, though the "Alternate Guns Specialties and Techniques" article from Pyramid 3-65 is always worth considering when relevant.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by qchap

MA p.215, last paragraph.
"FORCE SWORD (p. B272) – Science Fiction. A space-opera swashbuckler’s energy blade. The Basic Set version is used one- or two-handed – like a KATANA (pp. B271, B274) – with the Force Sword skill."

So, I just don't understand the advantage of using it two-handed.

Given that it only has the one stat line, for 1-handed use, using it two-handed would probably be in a Defensive Grip, for an extra -1 Parry to the side, +1 parry to the front, +2 to hit and +1 damage (of course +1 damage is quite minor when using a Force Sword). The main advantage is probably resistance to being disarmed. Obviously grasping the weapon up by the tip, etc. is not viable without some pretty exotic armour.

A Force Sword wielded in two-hands might be allowed to benefit from the rules on MA123 for two-handed swords (in which case they should apply even if it's not a two-handed Defensive Grip).

[qchap]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

All fluff. No actual rules. It's aping the 'style' of the Jedi from the first three Star Wars movies, nothing else.

Maybe it is not a rule in the style description, but it's definitely a rule in the weapon description.

Originally Posted by Rupert

Given that it only has the one stat line, for 1-handed use, using it two-handed would probably be in a Defensive Grip, for an extra -1 Parry to the side, +1 parry to the front, +2 to hit and +1 damage (of course +1 damage is quite minor when using a Force Sword). The main advantage is probably resistance to being disarmed. Obviously grasping the weapon up by the tip, etc. is not viable without some pretty exotic armour.

I still think it can be used in two-handed grip without defensive grip, it's clearly stated. And that one stat line is just used for both grips.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

So spitballing off some comments others have made...I wonder if it mightn't be not too out there to have a Melee Weapon skill (DX/A probably but not necessarily) that has no core function except maybe Feint roles and have all the extant Melee Weapon skills as Techniques off of it.

This probably would also call for some kind of re-arrangement of unarmed skills as well, which I'm not ready to propose. Probably not ranged skills, though the "Alternate Guns Specialties and Techniques" article from Pyramid 3-65 is always worth considering when relevant.

Interesting variant, I'll think about it, thank you!

Originally Posted by Rupert

A Force Sword wielded in two-hands might be allowed to benefit from the rules on MA123 for two-handed swords (in which case they should apply even if it's not a two-handed Defensive Grip).

And this is the real thing I somehow missed! I think it's the answer. It makes much more difference, than just giving some bonuses to armed wrestling. And it even really gives you parries similar to F. I think this bonuses is just enough to prefer two-handed grip for many characters.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Rupert

the rules on MA123 for two-handed swords

Ah, there's the bit I thought I remembered but couldn't find -- just that one reference elsewhere to the +2 for disarms. Thanks!

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by qchap

Maybe it is not a rule in the style description, but it's definitely a rule in the weapon description.

There is nothing about 'handedness' in it's write up in Ultra-Tech.

[/EDIT]
This is not quite true. What I mean is: There is nothing about using it two-handed in the Ultra Tech write up.
[/EDIT]

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Ah, there's the bit I thought I remembered but couldn't find -- just that one reference elsewhere to the +2 for disarms. Thanks!

It took me quite a while to find it - I knew there was something else, but I couldn't remember where it was, too.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

There is nothing about 'handedness' in it's write up in Ultra-Tech.

[/EDIT]
This is not quite true. What I mean is: There is nothing about using it two-handed in the Ultra Tech write up.
[/EDIT]

Don't know about it, but there is it in the MA's write up. I don't think that either is superior, so, if there is no information in the Ultra Tech, and there is information in the Martial Arts, we should believe in MA.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by qchap

Don't know about it, but there is it in the MA's write up. I don't think that either is superior, so, if there is no information in the Ultra Tech, and there is information in the Martial Arts, we should believe in MA.

Which as I said previously, is fluff. It's aping the style of the Jedi from the first three Star Wars movies, no rules, just fluff.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by qchap

Interesting variant, I'll think about it, thank you!

Written up slightly:

Melee Weapon (DX/A): Encompasses core skills around spacing, timing, footwork, and the like which are shared across all forms of armed melee fighting. This skill never stands alone, and is almost never rolled directly. All Melee Weapon skills become Average techniques of Melee Weapon, and anybody with Melee Weapon must buy at least one of them. Easy skills default to Melee Weapon and are capped at Melee Weapon+1, Average skills default to Melee Weapon-1 and are capped at Melee Weapon, Hard skills default to Melee Weapon-2 and are capped at Melee Weapon-1. (Technique Mastery should be forbidden for all of these techniques, or if allowed should be allowed for all of them with uniform effects, contrary to its existing text. Allowing Technique Mastery to raise the limit on any of these techniques by +2 is probably fair and gives some space for the more focused weapon master archetype to exist.)

These weapon group techniques are used in place of the melee weapon skills for all purposes in existing rules.

Optional: Feints are resisted with Melee Weapon instead of the best melee weapon technique level.

Optional: Make techniquesechniques with a melee weapon skill default instead have Melee Weapon as default (and prerequisite if applicable) instead. This may be applied universally or selectively.

Optional: Make Boxing, Brawling, and Karate into techniques as well, and rename "Melee Weapon" to "Melee Combat". This is decidedly half-baked and doesn't really work well with the skill-based damage bonuses those skills get.


Do enforce familiarity penalties - just because a PC has a fundamental grasp of how to wield melee weapons doesn't mean they can grab up any new strange implement of violence and instantly use it effectively!