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Old 11-25-2018, 02:35 AM   #1
ErhnamDJ
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Default If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

Say my character is the richest man in the world and he buys a powerful army to attack his enemies.

He has already spent the points on Wealth. He's paying cash for the army. Does he also need to spend the points on Rank to reflect his command of the army?
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:24 AM   #2
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

Yes. Otherwise he's just "the money", not the commander, and the troops won't particularly care what the civvie has to say. He might well be able to tell the actual commanders of the army what to do in general terms, since he is the client and they are mercenaries. The owner defines the job. But he can't give direct orders to random army members and expect them to recognize him and obey, and isn't actually part of the formal command structure of the army.

(Compare with, say, the owners of Blackwater / Xe / Academi. They're not commanding soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan. They might be able to coerce some of their employees via intimidation or bribery to get them to go against their orders or mission -- but then, the evil rich billionaires can always try that, even to members of armies they don't own. Or compare with US taxpayers. They pay for an army, and it serves them. But they don't have Rank and can't wave the UCMJ at enlisted for failing to follow their orders.)
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Old 11-25-2018, 06:00 AM   #3
johndallman
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Default Re: If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
He's paying cash for the army. Does he also need to spend the points on Rank to reflect his command of the army?
Without the Rank, you're a guy who has hired a mercenary army. With the Rank, you're its commander. The latter prevents one common failure mode of hiring mercenaries.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:50 AM   #4
Michele
 
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Default Re: If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

If the character is nothing but the employer, it would be a good idea to verify the employees' reactions. The important employees being at least the generals.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:18 AM   #5
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Default Re: If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

I would've said "no", but the other posters make a strong case. However, I'm not fully convinced yet. Do other things bought with Wealth need extra advantages to make them fully work the way the Wealthy owner wants? ie Is buying Rank consistent with how Wealth works for other purchases?

Furthermore, is it the same question as asking whether the POTUS, with Status 7, also needs Rank 7 to be Commander in Chief?
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:29 AM   #6
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
Say my character is the richest man in the world and he buys a powerful army to attack his enemies.

He has already spent the points on Wealth. He's paying cash for the army. Does he also need to spend the points on Rank to reflect his command of the army?
No, but there's a real advantage to buying the Rank if you want an army that won't turn on you because they see an option for more profit or they stop liking their odds.
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Old 11-25-2018, 11:05 AM   #7
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Default Re: If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

You aren't formally required to buy Rank to be able to give orders. Note the case of the president of the United States, who is commander in chief of the armed forces even if they've never been in any military force. That's not Rank; that's being "above" Rank. And I think that's generally true. The police take orders from a mayor or some such, who isn't a police officer; for that matter, angels are a hierarchy, with (in medieval Catholicism, at any rate) clearly defined ranks, but they report to God, who is not an angel—or to Jesus, "born the king of angels," who also is not an angel.

The real question is loyalty and what accounts for it. But GURPS has mechanics for that; there's the Loyalty score for an employee, which is settled by a dice roll. Or if you want to get fancy, Social Engineering has more elaborate rules for what the modifiers are and for gaining loyalty.

I'd also suggest that in the case of mercenaries, standard Military Rank doesn't apply; the general deference due to Rank comes partly from the assumption that the people who hold it are in service of some larger duty, not just of profits or pay. You would want to look at the variant Rank system in SE to construct a form of Rank that doesn't have that assumption, and it would be worth fewer points per level—and it might not carry a Status boost with it, except insofar as your pay scale gives you wealth.
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Old 11-26-2018, 02:00 AM   #8
Michele
 
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Default Re: If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
I would've said "no", but the other posters make a strong case. However, I'm not fully convinced yet. Do other things bought with Wealth need extra advantages to make them fully work the way the Wealthy owner wants? ie Is buying Rank consistent with how Wealth works for other purchases?
Being Wealthy lets you purchase things. So let's say you buy a supercomputer. You'd still be able to use it better if you had the relevant Skills and Advantages, for instance a suitable Talent that boosted your Skills. Or you buy a fancy car; but will you be able to make it work fully in the way you want, if you haven't spent any points in Driving?

And those are just objects. Soldiers are persons, they have their own will. That's why I mentioned the reaction roll check for the Loyalty of the employees, standard GURPS mechanics. You may pay their paychecks, but will they obey you if issue them with a suicidal order? A clearly illegal order? A totally stupid order?

Quote:
Furthermore, is it the same question as asking whether the POTUS, with Status 7, also needs Rank 7 to be Commander in Chief?
I'd say no - because the POTUS, regardless of his official position as Commander in Chief, defines overall strategic and political objectives. He decides to go to war and for what, he doesn't tell the generals how to achieve the objectives at the operational, let alone tactical, level. At least, not normally.
That might be what the PC wants. If so, he doesn't need Rank.

OTOH, if he wants to be able to serve as the real top general, because he thinks that's the way to have the army "fully" operate as he wants, then he needs to look at Hitler's leadership style from 1941 onwards. Hitler did actually appoint himself as commander of the army, did indeed decide operational plans, and did issue direct orders to units, sometimes bypassing the chain of command. And he did have the Military Rank to do that.
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:45 AM   #9
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

Well, I would actually disagree. The President is specifically the head of the military as well as the head of government, so he or she receives Political Rank 8 (President) and Military Rank 8 (Commander-in-Chief) when elected, granting him or her a +6 bonus to Status from his or her Ranks (meaning that the President only has to purchase Status 1). In the case of someone who just has Wealth, they would need to make a Loyalty check every order that they give unless they also purchase Military Rank.

The great thing about Wealth though is that you can buy loyalty among your servants. If a mercenary would earn $500 a day and you pay them $1,000 a day, you get +10 Loyalty. Remember though that they require benefits, insurance, taxes, etc. as well for their compensation, so I would budget such things equal to 50% into their effective base salary before figuring Loyalty. If you do not, they will be less loyal (meaning the above example would require $750 a day for base Loyalty and $1,500 a day for +10 Loyalty).
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Old 11-26-2018, 06:54 AM   #10
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Default Re: If you buy an army using your Wealth, do you need to buy Rank too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Being Wealthy lets you purchase things. So let's say you buy a supercomputer. You'd still be able to use it better if you had the relevant Skills and Advantages, for instance a suitable Talent that boosted your Skills. Or you buy a fancy car; but will you be able to make it work fully in the way you want, if you haven't spent any points in Driving?
Well, I asked about needing Advantages in particular, not Skills (and Talent in this case is nothing but a skill booster).

There's one situation I can think of that you'd need an Advantage to "be allowed to use" something you bought, and that would be whatever you need to use low Legality Class equipment - licences (gun, driving, pilot's, etc), Law Enforcement Powers, Rank, etc. But you don't need that Advantage yourself if you hire someone who does have it.

Quote:
And those are just objects. Soldiers are persons, they have their own will. That's why I mentioned the reaction roll check for the Loyalty of the employees, standard GURPS mechanics. You may pay their paychecks, but will they obey you if issue them with a suicidal order? A clearly illegal order? A totally stupid order?
But I'm not sure soldiers would necessarily do any of those things if you only had Rank. They would in some situations- sacrificing their own life for someone else's- but I think that's more a function of their Duty/SoD instead of your Rank.

But the OP's question is, "Does he *need* to purchase Rank?"
I'm thinking it's not necessary.

We could separately ask, "Would it *help* if he purchased Rank?" and it seems to be that most answers so far are actually answering this question.
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