Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-13-2012, 07:04 PM   #201
DCB
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Going from IQ 10 to IQ 11 halves the time required to reach a skill level of 10-12 with an average skill. That's ridiculously enormous; it basically means human performance ranges from IQ 9 to 11.
Not true, interestingly. This has come up previously in discussions on IQ ranges. The relevant part of the quoted study is:

"The learning rate of children above 130 IQ is approximately 8 times faster than for children below 70 IQ"

Based strictly on learning rates in the doubling-range of skill costs, we would expect to see a range of about 9-12 for that 95-98% of the population, with 2-5% being exceptions outside that range. (Personally, I would make the rate of exceptions substantially lower, at least for general GURPS IQ. 1-2% might be an okay rate for high-side exceptions when including Talents, though).
DCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2012, 02:09 AM   #202
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Going from IQ 10 to IQ 11 halves the time required to reach a skill level of 10-12 with an average skill. That's ridiculously enormous; it basically means human performance ranges from IQ 9 to 11.
While it's true that it halves the time required to get from ignorance to professional and near-professional levels of a skill, this does not simply translate into a doubled learning-rate.

For example, it only subtracts 25% of the time required to develop a reliable skill level in a skill with significant consequences of failure and/or becoming something of an expert at a routine profession (skill 14). As for attaining mastery in a challenging field (skill 16 in a Hard skill), the difference in learning times between IQ 10 and IQ 11 is less than 15%.

High gIQ represents intellectual curiosity, rapid assimilation and good memory, but it's also a way to fold generic life-experience and education that's below what's needed to get a point in each field into a game trait. That is, some people with higher gIQ might be precisely as naturally smart as people with lower gIQ, with the difference lying in knowledge base and experience. Whether that's because they has had a better education or more experience or whether they simply pay more attention to their surroundings and spend more of their time picking up new information is ultimately a roleplaying decision and not mechanically relevant.

So when two characters need to perform a task governed by a skill they don't have or quickly develop the basics of competency, the one with the higher gIQ can be assumed, for game purposes, to already have some knowledge about the skill, even if it's below what 1 point gives. That's why he does much better at default and that's why he picks it up much faster. But as they continue to study in the same field, the advantage of that greater initial familiarity becomes less and less important.

In my experience, at least, this is fairly representative of reality, at least on the order of simulation we can expect from anything gamable. While human learning speed might not vary by as much as gIQ7 to gIQ 15 or so would suggest at first glance, that's only if we try our best to design tests that remove cultural differences and so reduce the advantages of the smarter, more curious people with better memories by denying them the benefits they'd get from already knowing something about the subject, even if they lack a point of skill.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 11:28 PM   #203
Johnny1A.2
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Ain't no unskilled person using a rebreather or unusual gas mixes without dying on his first dive. Though I would say anyone with an IQ over 8 would know enough not to try.
You'd think so...but sometimes the supposedly smartest people are also the most overconfident in their own abilities, esp. if they're relatively young and haven't had much experience of failure or screwing up.

Sometimes, too, somebody that knows a lot about a related area is less ready to listen to instructions/advice in an area s/he knows something about, but not as much as the core area with which they are familiar.
Johnny1A.2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 03:27 AM   #204
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
You'd think so...but sometimes the supposedly smartest people are also the most overconfident in their own abilities, esp. if they're relatively young and haven't had much experience of failure or screwing up.
In my humble opinion, the smartest are precisely those who understand quickly that they don't really know the topic and, then, those who search for help as soon as possible (even if they sometimes search this help alone, on the Net or in a library).

"I'm very bright, I can do it without any help!" is more a proof of stupidity than a proof of cleverness...

All the very bright people I know always ask for detail as soon as they meet someone who can tell them things they don't already know. And they listen it carefully...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
Sometimes, too, somebody that knows a lot about a related area is less ready to listen to instructions/advice in an area s/he knows something about, but not as much as the core area with which they are familiar.
"Know enough to be dangerous" is the key expression here. When you believe you know enough, you become dangerous. When you really know enough, you begin to realize that you only know very few and that you actually have a lot more to learn.
Gollum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 03:35 AM   #205
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
While it's true that it halves the time required to get from ignorance to professional and near-professional levels of a skill, this does not simply translate into a doubled learning-rate.
Exactly.

And to come again to the main topic of this thread, the problem of very high IQ is that it doesn't only determine the speed of learning. It also determine the begining of the skill: the default level.

That is why IQ (or DX) has to be chosen wisely.

True geniuses exist in our real world. But they are rare. And universal geniuses may exist too, but they are even more rare...

Most historical geniuses where geniuses in few field of knowledge. A character who would be outstandingly good in all sciences, humanities, relations with others, arts, technology, etc., wouldn't sound very realistic. Even in a fictional world!

Mac Gyver is very good for survival and technology, but he is not as good as Einstein in Physics, and he is not as bright as Mozart in Music... And vice versa.

Thus, not too high IQ and talents are the best way to create geniuses... At least, in the GURPS system, where IQ has so many effects on so many skills.

Last edited by Gollum; 12-17-2012 at 03:40 AM.
Gollum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 05:25 AM   #206
Maz
 
Maz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denmark
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
Mac Gyver is very good for survival and technology, but he is not as good as Einstein in Physics, and he is not as bright as Mozart in Music... And vice versa.

Thus, not too high IQ and talents are the best way to create geniuses... At least, in the GURPS system, where IQ has so many effects on so many skills.
I haven't read the entire thread at all, but skimmed a couple of pages (sorry for that). But this just got me thinking. Maybe we overestimated the value of skill-levels.

I am normally a stat-normaliser... and skill-normaliser as well. But maybe part of the problem here is that we set the bar too low.

Even with IQ:20 you only get defaults at 14-16. And that's assuming you have a reason for that default in the first place. And then comes familiarity modifiers on top of it. This super-genius could still do most average jobs (that he had some degree of knowledge about) as well as the average person (skill:12-13). But he still wouldn't be an experts (14+) in that field without some time invested in it (at least enough time for 1-2 points and an unknown amount of time to get a broader familiarity).
But sure, if he put the time into it, he could rival the experts on the field, but he still would need years of focus to rival the masters in the field (skill:20-25, would cost 2-24 points depending on field, more if you need more than a single skill).

So even if Macguver had IQ:20 (I doubt it!) then he wouldn't be on par with Einstein or Mozart in their fields as MacGuver never really spend time on music and composition and even if he have 2 points in Physics that "only" gives him Skill:18, where Einstein probably ran around with 24, and that achieved with A LOT of skills points that would give him familiarity with al aspects not just a narrow field ("making things go boom").


And that's the thing. Real people, (unlike GURPS character who are min/maxed by their players) do not tend to branch out into dozens of fields and spend years in each. So, the real world historical examples of people who are really good at 4-5 things did probably have insanely high IQ. If they weren't good at every field it's probably because they had no interest in it or (in the case of social skills) posses disads that gave them a limit. Remember, high IQ doesn't by itself give a high reaction modifier.



I don't know if IQ:20 is believable of a human max (it might be lower). But I do believe that you can have realistic characters with very high IQ that do not have super high skills in everything. By remembering that a default level still requires some default knowledge, and applying familiarity modifiers harshly.
Personally I am still a Stat Normalizer though because once we move back into the RPG world players won't know exactly what defaults their character should have and applying random familiarity penalties all the time is annoying. Allowing high IQ is very problematic in GURPS due to the way the system works with a point budget and so on, and because it's an RPG game where people will tend to get the most out of what they pay for. But that doesn't mean historical people who do not min/max and have narrow areas of interest, couldn't have high IQ. You have to look at how much time they spend in different areas to reach the levels they did to get a good idea.



Houserule for keeping check of familiarity penalties.
Whenever someone wishes to do something new using a skill, have them roll against "experience" skill level (ie. 10 instead of IQ +point-level as usual). A failure results in a familiarity penalty equal to -2 +degree of failure.
This way someone with IQ:20 and 2 pt in, say Physics, would roll at skill:18. But would very often suffer at least -4 to -5 penalty.
While someone with IQ:13 and 20 points in physics would be rolling at skill:16 but would almost never suffer any familiarity penalty.

Last edited by Maz; 12-17-2012 at 05:30 AM.
Maz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 08:34 PM   #207
isf
 
isf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Jacksonville, AR
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post

Houserule for keeping check of familiarity penalties.
Whenever someone wishes to do something new using a skill, have them roll against "experience" skill level (ie. 10 instead of IQ +point-level as usual). A failure results in a familiarity penalty equal to -2 +degree of failure.
This way someone with IQ:20 and 2 pt in, say Physics, would roll at skill:18. But would very often suffer at least -4 to -5 penalty.
While someone with IQ:13 and 20 points in physics would be rolling at skill:16 but would almost never suffer any familiarity penalty.
I like this consider it stolen ;)
__________________
Travis Foster
isf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2012, 10:02 AM   #208
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Speaking of those, Using Skills Without Attributes (B172) is an important thing that shouldn't be overlooked if you're so worried about DX/IQ20. If an action truly depends on experience/knowledge/training but not on intelligence/agility, then by all means, demand a Roll Without Attributes and see your Da Vinci fail.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2012, 02:25 PM   #209
Flyndaran
Untagged
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Speaking of those, Using Skills Without Attributes (B172) is an important thing that shouldn't be overlooked if you're so worried about DX/IQ20. If an action truly depends on experience/knowledge/training but not on intelligence/agility, then by all means, demand a Roll Without Attributes and see your Da Vinci fail.
The only real reason why experience can be more useful than privately learned information is because no one teaches the "real world" stuff. Shouldn't a super genius be able to find accurate full bodies of knowledge and know when they aren't getting the full story?
It sounds like people want the high numbers but don't want to have the high abilities that they mean.
__________________
Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.
Flyndaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2012, 05:19 PM   #210
Maz
 
Maz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denmark
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
The only real reason why experience can be more useful than privately learned information [...]
I think your misunderstanding. A lot of points in a skill could just as easily be "privately learned info" as "work experience" as "taught at a school".

The point is that in all those cases your high skill is represented by "acquired knowledge" where someone with high skill based purely on a high attribute would be "natural instinct and talent".

And YES there is a huge difference. Take a master chef. He might have skill 15. If he have it due to IQ:20 and running on default in Cooking it means he can figure out, through his massive smartness, how to cook just about every possible recipe... assuming he has the recipe. If someone asked him to, say, cook ratatouille. It is unlikely he would know where to start. where someone with IQ:10 and 20 pts in Cooking, giving him skill:15 as well, would undoubtedly have cooked it before and know what ingredients to pick and how long it would take and so on.

Now of course, if you stick the genius a cookbook and let him try it out once. the next time someone ask him to cook it he can cook it as well as the experienced chef. And if he takes a cause in cooking getting him 1 point in it, he would quickly surpass the experienced chef. Figuring out how to improve the recipe, make the process more efficient and so on (as he would now have a skill of 19).
But the experienced chef would still know a lot more recipes.

... I think I am just repeating what I already said. Sorry.

----

Actually. That is exactly where "experience level" is appropriate to use. In any situation where you need to make a "knowledge check" based on the skill. Usually I tend to let that be IQ-based. But I guess there is a lot of reason in making it pure skill-based.

Some adventure skill examples:
Guns: Recognize specific guns based on sound or look. Know info about random gun (accuracy, range, penetration).
Melee weapons: Recognizing known weapon smiths names. Know weakness and strengths of exotic weapons as well as combat-styles used with those weapons.
Stealth: Figuring out how easy it would be to sneak into a place.
...hmm, I would still tend to think IQ-based on many of those.

Last edited by Maz; 12-18-2012 at 05:28 PM.
Maz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
attributes, stats

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.