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Old 12-17-2018, 02:03 PM   #11
Maz
 
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

I have a player with a knock-back attack in a long running campaing.

Experience with this:

Opportunities to knock people off of stuff is rare.
The game is cyberpunk and there are lots of fights in urban cityscapes, and yet most combat is inside of buildings or on roads. There have been opportunities to knock people off highways, walkways or out of windows. But they have been rarer than I would have thought. And even when present it's not always the "knock-backer" has been the one to be in the right position or he have had other powers he rather wanted to use.


Rules for knockback can quickly become tied down by details.
"Should you take less damage if you slam into a wall after traveling 5y with 5y knockback than if you hit the wall immediately after 1y. How about if you are right next to it, do you still take full damage?"
"Should you get a penalty to resist knockback if you do not see it coming. How about if you have your back turned?"
"How does it work when the target is riding a bike, can he hold on to the handle - does this give a bonus?"
"If knocked back, what does it take to fall over the edge of a railing or short wall?"
"Should a big heavy powerarmour (that does not boost ST) still give a bonus to resist knockback? How about if you are just carrying something really heavy, like a big machine-gun or another person?".
"How much knockback damage does it take to send someone flying through a window?"
"How does knockback work in zero G?"
...and finally it's just a bit cumbersome to constantly have to calculate the actual damage from scratch every time, as the knockback distance as well as the ST/HP of the target means you have to make a new calculation every time.

Note: I am not seeking for answers to all of these questions as I have them - now. They are just question we encountered in the game, which made us stop and have to make rules-decision or spend time looking up rules. So it's mostly "things to be aware of" with a knockback ability.


Falling over is more important than pushing back
When someone does 50 knockbackx2, it doesn't matter if your ST:10 or ST:20, you are going to be knocked back. Our player found that the most powerful part of the knockback is not so much the "moving people" as the, "have to make DX to avoid falling over".
Big strong brutes might not be knocked back so many yards, but they tend to have lower DX. While high-DX targets tend to have lower ST and so have a higher penalty to avoid falling over. As, "getting back up" takes two turns, that gives you two full turns to do something while they get back up, and then you can hit them with knockback again. So it's a very powerful crowd control ability. ...except when the target have guns. Then they just keep down and shoot you.
The actual damage potential from knockback is minimal. This is not the reason to take it.
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Old 12-17-2018, 02:47 PM   #12
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

Just out of curiosity, what happens again if multiple hits from a rapid fire ranged attack causes knockback? You could easily have that as an alterative attack to a much more lethal ranged attack...
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Old 12-17-2018, 05:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Well, a 15d double knockback attack will do an average of 105 points of knockback damage, which translates to 13 yards of knockback. 13 yards of knockback up results in 13 yards of falling down, which is velocity 17, dealing 3d+1 crushing damage if hitting a hard surface. When you do the math, it also takes three seconds to go up and fall back down, so it is not a bad way to take someone temporarily out of the fight.
When you knock someone into something solid, they are considered to have velocity equal to the knockback distance. Thus if you knock them straight up into the air, they'll have an upwards velocity equal to the knockback. In your example they'll be going up at 13 yards/s, and thus take about 2.4s to land, and will rise to about 8 yards. Assuming your HT10 victim the damage will be 3d crushing (as it will in your velocity 17 case by the RAW - you round to the nearest whole die, per B430).

Being able to knock people and objects around and up like this can be useful in non-combat situations, too, especially if the amount of power you use is selectable.
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Old 12-17-2018, 05:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

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Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
On a soft grassy field, it's ok, nothing remarkable. Somewhere near the edge of a massive canyon or a bridge over a yawning chasm.. it's not just horrible, it's fun as hell.
My players are currently moving up a narrow path, zig-zagging up a hundreds of feet high cliff. They are looking for a dragon and it's lair. The dragon has a sonic cone attack that's crushing damage with double knockback. The potential for fun and games if it hears them coming and is waiting at the top is considerable.
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Old 12-17-2018, 06:01 PM   #15
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Just out of curiosity, what happens again if multiple hits from a rapid fire ranged attack causes knockback? You could easily have that as an alterative attack to a much more lethal ranged attack...
Each hit counts separately, as they do for damage, etc.
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Old 12-18-2018, 07:14 AM   #16
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
fighting in a park, or on a street provides plenty of open area for people to be knocked around without being an infinite plane, nor stairs to worry about.
Parks have trees and streets have telephone poles, most are less than 3 feet wide but the assumption seems to be that if anything is occupying a hex you push someone into, it will be hit unless it can dodge.

It should be easier to knock someone into a 3ft wide wall than a 1ft wide wall, so maybe aiming at things within hexes should require whoever is doing the knockback to do another hit roll to "pool cue" them properly?

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
At best, your example of slightly changing ground elevation would be ignored, while at worst, it would only count as difficult terrain.
How high does a barrier need to be (curb, vaulting hurdle, safety fence) before it changes from terrain to a wall?

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Knocking someone down a flight of stairs, however, would be a fall. Adding the velocity of the fall to the amount knocked back to determine the damage inflicted.
Wouldn't you use the horizontal distance to determine the height they would fall from depending on the stairs' slope? 45 degrees would be simpliest since it would match. If it takes 3 horizantal yards to travel down 3 vertical yards, then knocking someone 3 yards back would give them space to fall down 3 yards.

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
most combat is inside of buildings or on roads. There have been opportunities to knock people off highways, walkways or out of windows. But they have been rarer than I would have thought.
I think the collective point is that when you don't have something around to knock someone off of, you have something like a wall to knock someone into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Rules for knockback can quickly become tied down by details.
"Should you take less damage if you slam into a wall after traveling 5y with 5y knockback than if you hit the wall immediately after 1y. How about if you are right next to it, do you still take full damage?"
Revisiting rules to answer these questions would be a great supplement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
"Should you get a penalty to resist knockback if you do not see it coming. How about if you have your back turned?"
Actively resisting knockback assumes ST, not actively resisting it assumes HP, I guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
"How does it work when the target is riding a bike, can he hold on to the handle - does this give a bonus?"
Holding or wearing things with weight that would slow you down (but that you might let go of) is another important consideration, especially with a 3rd party shoving grapplers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
"If knocked back, what does it take to fall over the edge of a railing or short wall?"
The 'Terrain' question to Skarr above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
"Should a big heavy powerarmour (that does not boost ST) still give a bonus to resist knockback?
Power Armor should probably have its own HP in addition to DR. This is about the wearing/holding gear inquiry above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
How about if you are just carrying something really heavy, like a big machine-gun or another person?".
Something like a 'Major Wound' that causes you to drop anything you are holding, but which can occur through displacement instead of injury, is probably a threshold we need. That or a sliding scale where more knockback = increasing penalties in a mandatory skill check to keep ahold of things (or if using TG, loss of Control Points which causes a drop if going below 0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
"How much knockback damage does it take to send someone flying through a window?"
HP/DR determines whether the glass shatters when you hit it, I expect we'd need something like "Overpenetrating" to determine if there is enough residual damage/momentum to carry you past it, and if so by how much (to see if your ally's arms on the floor below are long enough to catch you)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
it's just a bit cumbersome to constantly have to calculate the actual damage from scratch every time, as the knockback distance as well as the ST/HP of the target means you have to make a new calculation every time.
The calculation is a 2-tier effort, it goes faster if you calculte your HP-2 thresholds ahead of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Big strong brutes might not be knocked back so many yards, but they tend to have lower DX. While high-DX targets tend to have lower ST and so have a higher penalty to avoid falling over.
High DX guys have better "Breakfall" technique to land in a crouch (standing) instead of falling though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
As, "getting back up" takes two turns, that gives you two full turns to do something while they get back up,
High DX guys have higher "Acrobatic Stand" technique to do it in one turn.
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Old 12-18-2018, 07:32 AM   #17
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
It entirely depends on what you're up against, and what the setting is like.
Lastly, doubled knockback is just plain fun. There is something hilarious about knocking people back 4 yards and off their feet. Its also in genre for a lot of super hero and magical settings.
This, very much this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Opportunities to knock people off of stuff is rare.
And unfortunately this, as this is the "double the fun" option.

As for effect:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Falling over is more important than pushing back
This is something I have also found in my games.

But overall: knockback based attack is a bit questionable usually as primary attack, but quite often very much worth the points as alternate, specially an area effect version.
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Old 12-18-2018, 03:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

I could think of one highly situational situation where Knockback Only would be a good primary attack: a character who only wants to put some distance between themselves and their assailant but doesn't want to damage them directly.
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Old 12-18-2018, 04:40 PM   #19
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Just out of curiosity, what happens again if multiple hits from a rapid fire ranged attack causes knockback?
C-C-C-COMBO!!!
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Old 12-18-2018, 10:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw View Post
I could think of one highly situational situation where Knockback Only would be a good primary attack: a character who only wants to put some distance between themselves and their assailant but doesn't want to damage them directly.
Non-lethal options are very good in cases where you want to seem like less of a menace to society, not inspire vengeance, not harm someone over a misunderstanding, etc.

Also very good if someone has a lot of DR or Injury Tolerance and you need breathing room or getaway. Plus it can allow you to damage secondary targets by knocking people into them.
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