[Basic/HT] Shotgun pellets and hit location

[Ultraviolet]

Greetings
How do people handle hit location distribution of hits with shotgun pellets?
One location or several, to account for the spread?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

Greetings
How do people handle hit location distribution of hits with shotgun pellets?
One location or several, to account for the spread?

At most distances for personal combat (i.e. fairly short) there is so little _realistic_ spread that all pellets should hit the same location.

Even the "pattern boards" you see for birdshot at 40-50 yards could still keep any pellets that his on the Torso. There's a lot of difference between a realistic shotgun and a claymore mine.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

At most distances for personal combat (i.e. fairly short) there is so little _realistic_ spread that all pellets should hit the same location.

Unless that location is the eye or a finger or something.

[safisher]

GURPS has a "miss by 1 roll" for some hit locations. You could say that hits on the primary hit location were reduced by 1 (so you don't get more hits by this new rule), and then randomly assign that one hit to a hit location that could be hit on a miss by 1 (a miss by 1 on a neck hit is a torso hit). Also, don't forget that on many locations you roll 1d, with 1 meaning a hit on a sub-location (a neck hit can, on a 1, hit the veins/arteries; the above rule you'd roll 1d for the torso, with a 1 hitting vitals). Something like this could work, but it's a lot of extra accounting!

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by safisher

GURPS has a "miss by 1 roll" for some hit locations. You could say that hits on the primary hit location were reduced by 1 (so you don't get more hits by this new rule), and then randomly assign that one hit to a hit location that could be hit on a miss by 1 (a miss by 1 on a neck hit is a torso hit). Also, don't forget that on many locations you roll 1d, with 1 meaning a hit on a sub-location (a neck hit can, on a 1, hit the veins/arteries; the above rule you'd roll 1d for the torso, with a 1 hitting vitals). Something like this could work, but it's a lot of extra accounting!

So one could say all pellets hit same location, but roll separate sub-locations?

How about targeted attacks at small locations. I don't see this happening in my current campaign, but a targeted pellet attack at the vitals - is it in any way feasible to hit with all pellets to the vitals, or should some or most rather hit the torso?
Or one could say the nature of shotshells is that you can't aim at so small and particular locations, but rather target torso, arm, leg, face, skull etc. So by rolling separate sub-locations you have the chance of hitting vitals, eyes etc.

[Rupert]

A rough rule of thumb for a combat shotgun is that the pellets start out as a tight lump a little under an inch across, and spread about 1" per yard of range. Up to 10% of 1/2D range (4-5 yards for a HT shotgun), they count as a single attack, so we don't have to worry about spread over multiple locations inside that range.

Outside that range, if it matters I'd be inclined to compare size of the spread to size of the target location and if the spread is clearly bigger and there's some other handy location I'd have a portion of the hits go into the nearly location(s).

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

So one could say all pellets hit same location, but roll separate sub-locations?

I would allow one hit per attack to roll to hit a sub-location.

How about targeted attacks at small locations. I don't see this happening in my current campaign, but a targeted pellet attack at the vitals - is it in any way feasible to hit with all pellets to the vitals, or should some or most rather hit the torso?

As Rupert said, at reasonably close ranges, yes. At very close ranges, certainly. As the shot spread increases the density of the pellets makes hitting easier, but hitting with a high shot density is impossible.

Or one could say the nature of shotshells is that you can't aim at so small and particular locations, but rather target torso, arm, leg, face, skull etc. So by rolling separate sub-locations you have the chance of hitting vitals, eyes etc.

Yes, that's how I would do it. It's just a lot of added complexity. One exception: I would allow targeting of vitals. That's a large target, too, actually.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

So one could say all pellets hit same location, but roll separate sub-locations?

How about targeted attacks at small locations. I don't see this happening in my current campaign, but a targeted pellet attack at the vitals - is it in any way feasible to hit with all pellets to the vitals, or should some or most rather hit the torso?
Or one could say the nature of shotshells is that you can't aim at so small and particular locations, but rather target torso, arm, leg, face, skull etc. So by rolling separate sub-locations you have the chance of hitting vitals, eyes etc.

Please try the following thought experiment, which will hopefully illustrate why some of the answers may be counterintuitive:

Imagine that you're trying to hit a target that is vitals-sized, but is nothing except vitals. Would you say it's impossible to hit such a target? (SM-3, assuming that Vitals have zero modifiers for 'unusual movement' compared to a person/torso.)

GURPS of course already has an answer to that question: you apply a penalty for target size (and speed/range), and if your MoS equals or exceeds RoF×Rcl, you hit your desired (of size SM) with all projectiles. Which isn't easy. To the point that hitting a human figure with all pellets beyond boomstick range* is unlikely, especially with smaller-pellet / higher-RoF attacks. Which is something that isn't exactly nice rules-wise, but changing that would involve a fundamental rework of how RoF works, or maybe even how ranged modifiers work in general.

* == 10% of ½D.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by safisher

I would allow one hit per attack to roll to hit a sub-location.

But consider this: A shotshell attack targeted at the torso, where multiple pellets hit. Not unreasonable to have 4 pellets hit at fairly close range, by a fair shot, considering the RoF bonus. All pellets hit Torso, but wouldn't you roll the 1d sublocation for all of them to check if any hit the VItals?

Originally Posted by safisher

Yes, that's how I would do it. It's just a lot of added complexity. One exception: I would allow targeting of vitals. That's a large target, too, actually.

Maybe this isn't necessary after all - I mean the smaller locations have huge hit location penalties, which effectively means fewer pellets hit.

So targeting Torso (-0) may hit with 4 pellets, as above example. Each of them have 1 in 6 chance of hitting vitals.
But targeting Vitals (-3) only hits with 1 pellet, with the same roll as above. But that single pellet hits Vitals.
While the torso shot will most probably not hit vitals (4 rolls with 1/6 chance), but then again all 4 of them deal damage to the torso.

[sir_pudding]

I roll for sublocation for all hits (in games where I am using that rule).