Stating Captain Kirk

[Flyndaran]

I'm not old enough to know first hand, but wasn't overt gambling a bit seedy for 60s television audiences?

[borithan]

Originally Posted by Infornific

Driven to Command: Re-watching the series I was a little surprised how much Kirk's professionalism and studiousness are played up. He's more Joe Friday than James Bond.

Originally Posted by Anders

He's very smart. In one of the first episodes he was described a "a stack of book with legs", and there's no reason to think that was hyperbole. And he is better than Spock at 3D-chess.

The original series (+ the films, namely Wrath of Khan) pretty much makes it out that he was basically a bookish, arrogant, know-it-all swot at the academy, rather than the cock-sure jock he is in the new films (though at least they make a nod to it by referring to him as a "genius level deliquent"). He is the butt of the jokes, teasing and bullying of... can't remember his name, but some stereotyped Irish twerp. Finnegan, I think. Kirk thought he knew everything, even better than his instructors (hence "winning" the Kobayashi Maru). He became more rounded with the experience of actual service, but his arrogance morphed into the confidence (bordering on arrogance) we see in the series, as it became clear that he didn't know all, but he was damn good.

Originally Posted by Jasonft

He also needs Sense of Duty (Enterprise) at ridiculously high level. It was proved in the series to be so powerful that it could override a fairly serious mind control at least once.

Something about an alien woman and her tears if I recall. At the end of the episode I think Bones was going to give him the antidote and either Spock or Scotty said he didn't need it because his love for the ship left no room for anything else.

Taking the series as a whole in, I think it is pretty much implied than Kirk's true love is the Enterprise, rather than any human woman. I think there are at least two separate occasions when his feelings for the ship are vital to him saving the day. His lecherousness is often easily overstated, and I don't personally think much more than might be expected of the lead male of similar series of the time (watching Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea recently, and Captain Crane has similar experiences, just less frequently as women feature a heck of a lot less in that series). He only actually slept with (rather than kissed and/or flirted with) 2 women in the series itself, one of whom was his wife when he lost his memory and thought he was a Native American god, and the other was to get the woman to shut up (while Star Trek may have been ahead of its time in some areas, its attitudes towards women were not terribly forward thinking).

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

One thing about TOS!Starfleet is that it seems to follow Admiral Rickover's (the father of US submarine forces) cross-training philosophy: everyone is trained in all operations of the ship, in case you're needed to fill in somewhere. This means even Yeoman Janice Rand (perhaps the only enlisted person we saw in TOS; Roddenberry wanted to make her an Ensign because he thought Starfleet would operate on NASA's "you need to be an officer with a degree to go into space" doctrine) would have at least the Dabbler Perk in regards to Mechanic and ship gunnery.

Oh, there are ratings and enlisted people... all those guys wearing blue or red jumpsuits walking randomly around the ship. It's really by the time you get to the TNG era everyone seems to be at least an Ensign... except Miles O'Brien, who seems to be the one enlisted man in Starfleet, while regularly ordering around crewmembers who are technically his superior (and even he started life as an Ensign).

Originally Posted by Gedrin

Kirk had a broad interest in historical conflicts, particularly the leaders of such.

According to the FASA RPG Kirk's second best skill is "Trivia: Abraham Lincoln," based purely on one episode where he said he studied a lot about him...

[Not]

I think we should infer a great deal more promiscuity than was actually shown on-screen. Remember that the 60s were another world, alien to ours. In one scene, a woman realizes she's been away from the party with Kirk too long and gasps, "My reputation!" When was the last time you heard an in-the-flesh person say anything of the kind?

[borithan]

There were codes for these sorts of things (there still is), which implied a sexual encounter was going, or had just occurred. One still in use today is the one where a couple is kissing, and then the camera pans upwards and away from them. This is commonly known to mean they are going to have sex, as it was back then. The main difference is that in modern cinema and TV this is reserved for family friendly fare, while in the past this was used more broadly.

The one scene where it is clear Kirk has had sex (this was explained in the DVD commentary by the writers) we see him kiss the woman to shut her up, and then we next see him fully dressed, but pulling his boots on while she is in bed. We never see them having sex, but this was the signal it had occurred. Nothing similar happens between him and another woman in the series (we know he has slept with his "native american" wife as she becomes pregnant child). Outside this we know he had a serious relationship with Carol Marcus (and no particular indication that it was just a fling, just that it ended, and she couldn't seem him sticking around to be much of a father), and there is some woman referenced in Generations who he is clearly meant to have had a serious relationship with.

If you watch the series carefully there are rarely other times he would actually have time to have sex with the female characters he is flirting with/kissing. Encounters are rarely left open ended to allow them to have off screen unreferenced sex. Now you mention the whole "my reputation" thing... but that could be as much about a young woman being off on her own with a man, not that it particularly had anything to do with it being Kirk specifically. Now, a modern re imagining of it would have Kirk sleeping with more women, as that is now the norm of male leads in modern TV, though I think the modern films take it too far. If anything, in the original series it is McCoy that is noted for having a real eye for the ladies. Kirk has encounters with women because he is the lead character not because he is a particular letch.

One scene (which is quite amusing in modern eyes for different reasons), has Kirk with backache, when the Yeoman steps in to give him a back massage. He appreciates this, and thanks Spock for the help, only for him to realise that it isn't him but his Yeoman, at which points he cuts it off. Now, this just totally plays to the modern Kirk/Spock slash thing, but at the time was about it being inappropriate because she was female crewmember under his command (in comparison to Riker... who sleeps with anything that takes his fancy, junior crew member or not).

Now, I am not saying Kirk only slept with 4 women, I am saying I am 1) unconvinced of his reputation as a letch and 2) I am not convinced he was more successful with women than any similar lead male character would have been in series of the time. Now, the Kirk from the modern films is a total letch, but I think this is because he is based on what people think Kirk was like, rather than how he actually is characterised. Same with the new "Kirk as an arrogant jock" compared to the original where he is the result of hard work, study and experience. The original series Kirk was confident (to the verge of arrogance) because he had proved himself. The new one... is just a dick for no reason than other people remember Kirk as being ridiculously confident in his own abilities.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

One thing about TOS!Starfleet is that it seems to follow Admiral Rickover's (the father of US submarine forces) cross-training philosophy: everyone is trained in all operations of the ship, in case you're needed to fill in somewhere. This means even Yeoman Janice Rand (perhaps the only enlisted person we saw in TOS; Roddenberry wanted to make her an Ensign because he thought Starfleet would operate on NASA's "you need to be an officer with a degree to go into space" doctrine) would have at least the Dabbler Perk in regards to Mechanic and ship gunnery.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

She isn't the only enlisted person in TOS, see the list of enlisted personnel in Memory Alpha.

Originally Posted by borithan

Oh, there are ratings and enlisted people... all those guys wearing blue or red jumpsuits walking randomly around the ship. It's really by the time you get to the TNG era everyone seems to be at least an Ensign... except Miles O'Brien, who seems to be the one enlisted man in Starfleet, while regularly ordering around crewmembers who are technically his superior (and even he started life as an Ensign).

I love how people are drifting towards my parenthesized aside comment about enlisted folks and pretty much ignoring the original point of the comment, that Kirk is a skilled mechanic/gunner because TOS-era Starfleet cross-trained everybody in all ship-board operations. I love this board. :)

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

I love how people are drifting towards my parenthesized aside comment about enlisted folks and pretty much ignoring the original point of the comment, that Kirk is a skilled mechanic/gunner because TOS-era Starfleet cross-trained everybody in all ship-board operations. I love this board. :)

It makes sense for a lone military spaceship to cross train the bridge crew to competency. But I doubt genre/era rules would allow showing a lead character being anything less than top notch even when working outside thier field.

[Not]

Borithan makes a good case. Kirk showed plenty of restraint when necessary ("Miri"). Mirror Kirk was probably the real womanizer.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Not

Borithan makes a good case. Kirk showed plenty of restraint when necessary ("Miri"). Mirror Kirk was probably the real womanizer.

It matters how factually we take the scenes shown and which of the many genre and era conventions we accept as in story fact.

He was promiscuous. But whether we take that to mean modern interpretation naked-fun-time or 60s era necking only is impossible to objectively determine.

Mirror Kirk was almost certainly a sexual harasser / date rapist.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by robkelk

I'm reminded of the Murphy's Rule about Traveller's space marines being trained how to use their swords ... and we know Sulu knows how to fence. And there's also the episode Day of the Dove. Maybe there's a one-semester course at Starfleet Academy on how to not make a complete fool of yourself when handling a blade.

Certainly as an elective. Military academies offer all kinds of obsolete martial arts for the physical training after all, and in this setting there's a chance this stuff could actually be useful.

For that matter, any school that trains people to infiltrate low TL societies really should require them to take "Introduction to Archaic Weapons". Not so much to train them to use them very effectively as to teach them what they can and can't do, how to pick one up safely, and maybe use one well enough to discourage an untrained street thug. If everybody can wear a sword without tripping over it and, knows bullets can go through soft cover and gunshots are deafeningly loud compared to beams, that's a good start on playing a convincing non-warrior in a culture that uses these things.

[borithan]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Mirror Kirk was almost certainly a sexual harasser / date rapist.

Probably. Sexual harassment, of a very blatant and aggressive manner, seems to be the norm in the Mirror Universe, and the Mirror Universe Kirk is presented as being particularly unpleasant, even in that context.

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

I love how people are drifting towards my parenthesized aside comment about enlisted folks and pretty much ignoring the original point of the comment, that Kirk is a skilled mechanic/gunner because TOS-era Starfleet cross-trained everybody in all ship-board operations. I love this board. :)

Well, I think that point was mostly agreed on, so people were commenting on the thing they disagreed with. I don't think applies only to TOS. TNG, DS9 and Voyager all imply the same. Most of the characters seem to have at least basic mechanical skills (even if O'Brien is dismissive of the "Engineering Fresher courses" that Bashir says he had taken), and many of the senior officers even seem to have a basis in much of the treknobabble theory behind much of the equipment.