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Old 03-08-2013, 07:45 AM   #31
fifiste
 
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Default Re: When does one use Scrounging?

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
EDIT: I have Absent Minded, definitely the full -15 point version. When I have something in my hand/hands and my attention gets focused on something else and I need a free hand, I literally have no concious awareness of the process of freeing up the hand.
I have lost items for good this way, once I lit a fire in my fireplace during some other chores. I'm rather sure I burned my oven mittens as a fire-starter as they have been never seen since that day.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:48 AM   #32
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: When does one use Scrounging?

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Originally Posted by Sense of Duty (Kittens) View Post
Scrounging is a cheap skill, but it does not seem to have much that is not covered by other Per skills. When searching corpses for goods is a Scrounging or Search rool necessary to make sure you got everything? What skill is the guy who routinely checks under vending machines for change employing? Scrounging? Observation? Urban Survival?

Scrounging does not seem to be a useful investment of points at all.
Scrounging is the MacGyver skill. It's not everything MacGyver does, but it's the basis for at least 85% of everything he does.



More generally, whatever kind of Search skill I end up including in Sagatafl (I doubt I'll have separate Searching and Scrounging ones), it'll be more about searching quickly and efficiently (because of having established systematic methods), and perhaps being able to routinely overcome one's natural squeamishness at interacting with corpses and slimy stuff and so on, and maybe sticking one's hand into strange places in such a way as to minimize the risk of scraping against rusty bits of iron.

No such skill lets you do anything you flat out wouldn't be able to do without it. They (or it) just lets you do it a lot faster, and a lot safer, and in a fashion that's a lot less impeded by problems and hurdles.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:50 AM   #33
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: When does one use Scrounging?

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Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
It seems to me that the "military scrounging" as depicted in movies would not just use scrounging skill. It might start with a scrounging roll, with a complimentary roll on something like soldier or administration, to locate the item. Then any number of social skills could be used to acquire it, administration, diplomacy, fast-talk, gambling, intimidation, merchant, etc. If it is a complicated process, it might take using a number of these skills in succession, or using one or more of them as complimentary skills to another.
Yes indeed. I don't think the military thing is a good illustration of the intended usage of GURPS' Scrounging skill.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:39 AM   #34
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Default Re: When does one use Scrounging?

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post

I would love to hear more detail on use of this skill. I'm never sure how much I should focus on the "without letting others know that you are watching" part of the skill description on 211.
Threads about that abound . . . I'm hoping somebody bookmarked a few (I didn't!). Here's a summary:

Observation doesn't replace Camouflage, Shadowing, or Stealth, ever. If you don't want to be seen, you also need a skill suitable to the situation. What the "not letting others know" part of the Observation skill specifically means is that the act of using the skill doesn't give away the game on its own – that is, the skill teaches you how not to poke your telescope lens out the window, catch the light on your binoculars, or lean so far out of your hiding place that somebody sees you there. The skill doesn't teach you how to hide in the first place. Without Observation, the GM has carte blanche to say that your great Camouflage, Shadowing, or Stealth roll is for naught, because you're doing something dumb to mess with it. However, if all you have is Observation, "not letting others know" can certainly cover using a telescope or a shotgun mic from so far away that nobody can make the Vision roll to see you anyway.

In actual play, the way it works is that you declare what you're doing to be sneaky and then roll normally for that: NPC's Vision or Hearing vs. your Stealth, his Vision at -10 because you're 100 yards away and not in plain sight, his own Observation vs. your Camouflage because you're in the bushes, or whatever. If you're not detected, go ahead and use Observation. The act of using that skill never allows a new roll for detection, forces a new role for hiding, or compromises your old roll for hiding. However, you cannot say, "I have Observation, and it says it's about not letting others know, so I'm going to use it instead of Stealth to hide." That might let you hide your telescope, but you'll be standing in plain sight right behind it . . .

The one exception is in direct observer vs. observer contests. In that case, the GM might prefer not to roll two Quick Contests of (say) Stealth vs. Observation, because turning four margins of success into two margins of victory, and then comparing two margins of victory to get one margin of victory, is painful on the brain. Settling matters as a Quick Contest of Observation, letting a concealment skill act as complementary to each, is good enough.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:32 PM   #35
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Default Re: When does one use Scrounging?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
In actual play, the way it works is that you declare what you're doing to be sneaky and then roll normally for that: NPC's Vision or Hearing vs. your Stealth, his Vision at -10 because you're 100 yards away and not in plain sight, his own Observation vs. your Camouflage because you're in the bushes, or whatever. If you're not detected, go ahead and use Observation.
For a real-life example, when I was covering the city council for a newspaper in Kansas, the council would sometimes go into closed door session. The hall outside was narrow and doubled as a waiting area for the planning office, with two modestly-comfortable chairs just outside the door. In game terms, I used Acting to seem to be cat-napping in one of the chairs (not unexpected, it was mid-day and often fairly warm) and then Observation to pick up pieces of the conversation behind the door.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:06 PM   #36
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Default Re: When does one use Scrounging?

I'd think Observation also covers the times you're not hidden, as Rocket Man describes. You know tactics to keep out of sight while Observing in the first place -- but when you're not out of sight, you also know how to Observe without obviously focusing and staring at your target of interest, taking notes in your little notepad, glancing at your watch every time security guard walks by, and all that, when you "case the joint".

Acting skill alone means you fool people into thinking you're just another shopper/tourist/cubicle dweller, but you won't learn anything just by hanging around and Acting. Observation lets gather information while you avoid attention-getting, out-of-character actions that would blow your Acting role and roll, much as it lets you not do stupid things to obviate your Stealth/Camo roll.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:18 PM   #37
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Default Re: When does one use Scrounging?

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Old 03-09-2013, 12:44 PM   #38
fifiste
 
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Default Re: When does one use Scrounging?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
I'd think Observation also covers the times you're not hidden, as Rocket Man describes. You know tactics to keep out of sight while Observing in the first place -- but when you're not out of sight, you also know how to Observe without obviously focusing and staring at your target of interest, taking notes in your little notepad, glancing at your watch every time security guard walks by, and all that, when you "case the joint".

Acting skill alone means you fool people into thinking you're just another shopper/tourist/cubicle dweller, but you won't learn anything just by hanging around and Acting. Observation lets gather information while you avoid attention-getting, out-of-character actions that would blow your Acting role and roll, much as it lets you not do stupid things to obviate your Stealth/Camo roll.
So when I scout around in somekind of office then I'd need a acting roll to look like a delivery boy etc. (someone who has a reason to be there) AND an observation roll not to look like a delivery boy who is taking pictures of your security cameras :D

In case I'm scouting a street surrounding a open air restaurant I probably wont need an acting roll because well people just welcome to sit down there and order stuff - but I would need an observation roll for you know again not to be obviously looking at sensitive stuff. *

It greatly makes sense. Thank you was kind of twisting my brain actually without it.


Talking 'bout restaurants and sensitive stuff and what not made me somehow think that lots of pervy guys might have a point or at least improved default for peep-tommery/tom-peepery, y'know to "observe" themselves some T&A of that waitress etc.
Lots of them obviously don't :D
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:56 PM   #39
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Default Re: When does one use Scrounging?

Heres some quote from Kromm onn Observation and stealth
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Precisely. The operative concept for Observation is gathering intelligence on a tactical and physical environment. The "not being seen" part is completely incidental to this. It isn't the primary goal of Observation, and it doesn't mean that Observation can stand in for Acting, Camouflage, Stealth, or other forms of concealment. It is simply a postscript added to make clear that if you do it right, the process of observation does not corrupt your intelligence with an observer effect. Your lack of guile or stealth may well still do this; while Observation teaches you not to let your binoculars glint and not to write your nighttime observations down by flashlight, it doesn't teach you how to hide behind trees or pass as a garbage man. For that, you still need Stealth or Acting.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Observation only guarantees that if it works, it won't compromise existing concealment or deception arrived at via other means. "Other means" could be Acting, Camouflage, Disguise, Electronics Operation, Fast-Talk, Shadowing, Stealth, etc. The specific additional protection granted by Observation is knowledge of covert intelligence-gathering methods to use once you get into place. The clearest example is the "glint from binoculars" case: If I've hidden myself with Camouflage or Stealth in order to use Observation, then successful Observation means that I don't screw up Camouflage or Stealth by watching the target in a way that reflects light in his face. However, it can also apply in situations where you've used Acting, Carousing, or Streetwise to fit in at a bar, in which case it doesn't cover the "fitting in" part, only the "not craning your head over the partition or exposing the microphone in your lapel" element.

To compare it to another skill, consider Holdout. It doesn't let you conceal your identity or motives, only your possessions. It can let you hide a weapon (for instance) so that your Acting, Disguise, and Fast-Talk rolls aren't at a penalty – or made automatic failures – for a big, honking gun. But merely concealing the gun isn't enough to let you pass as "not a detective" or "not a gangster" if those you're trying to fool are on alert for detectives or gangsters. You still need to fit in, which demands other skills.

Both skills are ways to keep particular methods and equipment from messing with your attempt to keep a low profile. They aren't the primary means through which you attain a low profile, however.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Not at all. Please review the verbs:
This is the talent of observing dangerous or "interesting" situations without letting others know that you are watching.

This is the talent of observing dangerous or "interesting" situations without letting others know that you are present.
The former addresses the act of watching, which literally means the act of pointing your binoculars or microphone, or otherwise actively gathering data. The latter addresses the act of hiding. The rules specify the former, not the latter. You can use Stealth to disguise your presence, but without Observation, watching rather than simply hiding will screw this up. You can use Observation to disguise your intent, but without Stealth, you're not hidden and so it doesn't matter. It's quite possible to be good at Observation but not Stealth if you use means that don't allow the other person a Sense roll; e.g., a telescope from 1,000 yards. It's equally possible to be good at Stealth but not Observation. That's why the skills are separate.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Precisely. The operative concept for Observation is gathering intelligence on a tactical and physical environment. The "not being seen" part is completely incidental to this. It isn't the primary goal of Observation, and it doesn't mean that Observation can stand in for Acting, Camouflage, Stealth, or other forms of concealment. It is simply a postscript added to make clear that if you do it right, the process of observation does not corrupt your intelligence with an observer effect. Your lack of guile or stealth may well still do this; while Observation teaches you not to let your binoculars glint and not to write your nighttime observations down by flashlight, it doesn't teach you how to hide behind trees or pass as a garbage man. For that, you still need Stealth or Acting.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Observation only guarantees that if it works, it won't compromise existing concealment or deception arrived at via other means. "Other means" could be Acting, Camouflage, Disguise, Electronics Operation, Fast-Talk, Shadowing, Stealth, etc. The specific additional protection granted by Observation is knowledge of covert intelligence-gathering methods to use once you get into place. The clearest example is the "glint from binoculars" case: If I've hidden myself with Camouflage or Stealth in order to use Observation, then successful Observation means that I don't screw up Camouflage or Stealth by watching the target in a way that reflects light in his face. However, it can also apply in situations where you've used Acting, Carousing, or Streetwise to fit in at a bar, in which case it doesn't cover the "fitting in" part, only the "not craning your head over the partition or exposing the microphone in your lapel" element.

To compare it to another skill, consider Holdout. It doesn't let you conceal your identity or motives, only your possessions. It can let you hide a weapon (for instance) so that your Acting, Disguise, and Fast-Talk rolls aren't at a penalty – or made automatic failures – for a big, honking gun. But merely concealing the gun isn't enough to let you pass as "not a detective" or "not a gangster" if those you're trying to fool are on alert for detectives or gangsters. You still need to fit in, which demands other skills.

Both skills are ways to keep particular methods and equipment from messing with your attempt to keep a low profile. They aren't the primary means through which you attain a low profile, however.
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