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Old 01-24-2007, 09:52 AM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

Greetings, all!

I remember somebody quoting Kromm's words that it is bad design to have a skill that is always used at a penalty. Yet, garrote is exactly that sort of skill. Even when assuming AoA (which is not always wise to do, even for a backstab), it comes up with a net penalty. Shouldn't it have a built-in Hit Location attached or something? After all, according to RAW, the only thing the skill allows one to do is strangling the neck. No frontal attacks, no parries, no disarms, nothing. Isn't that too harsh for 200 hours?

Thanks in advance to all who answer!
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Old 01-24-2007, 10:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

It may typically be used at a penalty, but it can't be a built-in penalty, since necks won't always be the same size. Using a garrotte against, say, a bear or a pixie gives a different penalty than using it against a human. Better to do what the rules say, which is to apply the appropriate penalty for attacks on the neck.

The lack of parry and other abilities might be regarded as a problem, but on the other hand, if you do succeed, a garrotte is a pretty nasty weapon, so one could likewise argue that it balances out. That said, a case could be made for making Garrotte a technique based on an unarmed combat skill rather than a skill in itself.
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

When people quote me, they really need to get it right. Generally, I preface such remarks with, "As much as possible . . .". In this case, it's impossible to avoid the penalty. This weapon is used for just one thing, and that's an attack on a body part that always gives a penalty to hit. Consistency demands that two DX/E skills useful for striking in combat -- say, Brawling and Garrote -- both suffer the same hit-location penalty.

Note also that the assumption is that you're attacking an unaware victim from behind. He'll normally be surprised, so it's safe to use All-Out Attack (Determined) for +4, and you'll normally be sneaking up, so you'll have time to Evaluate for +3. That's a net +2.
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:44 AM   #4
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Default Re: Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
When people quote me, they really need to get it right. Generally, I preface such remarks with, "As much as possible . . .". In this case, it's impossible to avoid the penalty. This weapon is used for just one thing, and that's an attack on a body part that always gives a penalty to hit. Consistency demands that two DX/E skills useful for striking in combat -- say, Brawling and Garrote -- both suffer the same hit-location penalty.

Note also that the assumption is that you're attacking an unaware victim from behind. He'll normally be surprised, so it's safe to use All-Out Attack (Determined) for +4, and you'll normally be sneaking up, so you'll have time to Evaluate for +3. That's a net +2.
Umm, isn't using Stealth a Move or Ready maneuver? I thought Evaluate was something different.
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molokh

Umm, isn't using Stealth a Move or Ready maneuver? I thought Evaluate was something different.
As long as you're moving just a step per second, it doesn't matter what maneuver you're taking while you use Stealth. Of course if it's something that makes noise, it won't be smart . . . but Evaluate is silent. Since we're quoting me, you'll note that many times I've said that Evaluate is normally what you do while using Stealth to sneak up on an opponent. The Stealth skill even lets you move faster than Move 1, but then you're at -5. However, if you only use Move 1, you're not at -5 . . . and since you can step while you Evaluate, you can claim you're using Stealth without the -5 . . . and since Evaluate works on anyone within potential Move and Attack range, you can use it on somebody up to your full Move away. So somebody with Move 5 could Evaluate for five seconds as he makes a Stealth roll to sneak up.
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
As long as you're moving just a step per second, it doesn't matter what maneuver you're taking while you use Stealth. Of course if it's something that makes noise, it won't be smart . . . but Evaluate is silent. Since we're quoting me, you'll note that many times I've said that Evaluate is normally what you do while using Stealth to sneak up on an opponent.
Thanks!

Though I'm still unsure as to the pricing of Garrote with all its relative simplicity (i.e. it covers about the same amount of actions as a single Technique). Why was it not done as such, just out of curiosity?
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molokh

Though I'm still unsure as to the pricing of Garrote with all its relative simplicity (i.e. it covers about the same amount of actions as a single Technique). Why was it not done as such, just out of curiosity?
Apparently, it isn't that simple. It's a complicated process, controlling your enemy while keeping hold of both ends of a garrote and staying in a position to exert killing force. It's often cited as being less preferable to using a knife because it's more difficult and less reliable. So I think it's a lot more than just a simple technique based on DX or Wrestling.
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
As long as you're moving just a step per second, it doesn't matter what maneuver you're taking while you use Stealth. Of course if it's something that makes noise, it won't be smart . . . but Evaluate is silent. Since we're quoting me, you'll note that many times I've said that Evaluate is normally what you do while using Stealth to sneak up on an opponent. The Stealth skill even lets you move faster than Move 1, but then you're at -5. However, if you only use Move 1, you're not at -5 . . . and since you can step while you Evaluate, you can claim you're using Stealth without the -5 . . . and since Evaluate works on anyone within potential Move and Attack range, you can use it on somebody up to your full Move away. So somebody with Move 5 could Evaluate for five seconds as he makes a Stealth roll to sneak up.
Isn't there a max +3 bonus for Evaluate?

And related, would it be legal to Evaluate (described as sizing up the neck of your opponent and planning where to put your knife) and then make a AoA Double, Grappling attack and Brawling strike for which you don't use an Evaluate bonus, saving it for the stab in the next round.

To summarise, can one save up the Evaluate for the real attack in the next round and not waste it on a strike which is only meant to distract and stun?
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Apparently, it isn't that simple. It's a complicated process, controlling your enemy while keeping hold of both ends of a garrote and staying in a position to exert killing force. It's often cited as being less preferable to using a knife because it's more difficult and less reliable. So I think it's a lot more than just a simple technique based on DX or Wrestling.
But in fairness, wouldn't controlling the enemy and staying in the right position be Wrestling?

I could see an argument for Garotte being a Hard Technique defaulting to Wrestling-6. That would make it relatively expensive to learn, but still make veteran wrestlers better at it than just anyone.
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

Why not default the Garrote skill to Wrestling-x? Granted, I have no idea if (and why) it is any different than choke hold or its ilk (but I am pretty sure I have a point or two in brawling and I don't think it can be a technique to default to Brawling).

Cheerio!
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