Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-01-2020, 05:36 AM   #1
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Damage Resistance and Tech Level

One problem I have with Damage Resistance is that the value of DR shifts with Tech Level. DR 5 is worth a lot at TL 3 but pretty useless at TL 10. I've toyed with two different ways to mimic this.

One is to make the cost of DR variable - something like 10-TL (TL 10 would cost 1/2, TL 11 would cost 1/4 and TL 12 would cost 1/8).

The other is to set the cost at 10 and make up a limitation: -10% per Tech Level.

I began with the first one but now I like the second one better. Hmm... thoughts?
__________________
"Is this not your natural state? It's the unspoken truth of humanity, that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power, for identity. You were made to be ruled." - my cats
Anders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2020, 06:09 AM   #2
MrFix
 
MrFix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

The value of DR does not change with TL, the lethality of weapons does, and even then only in certain situations.

A TL0 fist fight is the same as TL8 one, introduce knives nothing changes, introduce bats nothing changes.

Concealable pistols, grenade shrapnel, explosions, car crashes, falls, all of that deals damage on relatively same level.

... Until you start fighting the government, who shoot you with 4d assault rifles, 7d sniper rifles and 6dx2 autocannons.

But then again, you wouldnt have a great time surviving an arbalest shot to the chest with just innate DR at TL4.

In that sense, DR is a trait has the same value throughout TLs, it's just the TLs add more ways for you to get hurt.

TL10 is rocket-tag gameplay fully realized, and even equipment with 100 DR suffers from the damage it's weapons can output. This is mainly due to Ultra-Tech game design as opposed to inherent lack of value in DR.

Trying to adjust your DR pricing based on TL will quickly lead to your PCs having a tank under their skin for a relatively benign price that can be increased by wearing actual armor on top, creating situations where you have Superman on your hands, whom you'll have to gas or nuke or some such to stop from walking through encounters.

Based on these points, any reasonable change to DR advantage must follow these principles
- Must cost much more than a piece of body armor of the same TL and similar DR, as it cannot be taken away and can be stacked and covers the entire body. GURPS Basic Set suggests that 1 point = $1,000

- Must not invalidate the genre of the game. TL8 magical kung fu adventures runs out the second you realize that 10 DR renders actual kung fu useless.

Military games tend to lose their flavor when a soldier with 10 DR + 35 DR assault vest can tank autocannon bullets and serve as mobile cover.

- Must not inconvenience players who do not take DR. If you need RPG-7 to take down Bob (50 DR), why not fire one at Susie (0 innate DR) too?

I'd personally not touch the DR pricing, at best halve the price starting TL9 to reign in the rocket tag gameplay. 10-TL or -10% per TL creates hilarious situations like 20 Points buying you 10 DR (no more melee fights), 50 buying you 25 DR (assault rifles? what's that?), 100 points buying you 50 DR (You can now survive around 2 pounds of C4 exploding under your feet). And all of this at TL8, so your enemies have to be hitting you with RPG-7s to stop you.
__________________
Your level of GURPS proficiency:
Pedestrian: 3e vs 4e
Proficient: Early 4e vs Late 4e
Master: Kromm vs PK

GURPS: Shooting things for fun and profit

Last edited by MrFix; 04-01-2020 at 06:18 AM.
MrFix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2020, 06:13 AM   #3
Christopher R. Rice
 
Christopher R. Rice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
One problem I have with Damage Resistance is that the value of DR shifts with Tech Level. DR 5 is worth a lot at TL 3 but pretty useless at TL 10. I've toyed with two different ways to mimic this.

One is to make the cost of DR variable - something like 10-TL (TL 10 would cost 1/2, TL 11 would cost 1/4 and TL 12 would cost 1/8).

The other is to set the cost at 10 and make up a limitation: -10% per Tech Level.

I began with the first one but now I like the second one better. Hmm... thoughts?
In something I'm working on I called it out as the best DR you can get in the setting allows you to purchase that DR at 1/5 cost. So if you could get DR 50 via clamshell armor then purchasing DR 50 would cost only 50 points.
__________________
My Twitter
My w23 Stuff
My Blog

Latest GURPS Book: Monster Hunters Power Ups 1
Latest TFT Book: Crown of Eternity

Become a Patron!
Christopher R. Rice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2020, 06:21 AM   #4
RyanW
 
RyanW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

I don't think it should change much between 0 and 3. You're dealing almost entirely with muscle powered weapons dealing the same range of damage. If doing this, I might go with something like 5 points, minus 1/2 point per TL above 3.

On the other hand, I think low DR values retain a lot of usefulness. Most injuries that people face (even on the battlefield) are cuts, scrapes, and falls.
__________________
RyanW
Nothing can hurt you in space. Unfortunately, space does tend to have plenty of nothing.
RyanW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2020, 06:27 AM   #5
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
TL10 is rocket-tag gameplay fully realized, and even equipment with 100 DR suffers from the damage it's weapons can output. This is mainly due to Ultra-Tech game design as opposed to inherent lack of value in DR.
Aside from ETC rifles, UT is actually fairly good about this - most rifles do around 6d damage, and the improvement with TL is primarily in penetration. This is still a problem for armour, of course, but at least it means that the pink mist problems aren't too bad - hitting someone unarmoured isn't any worse than with modern guns, and hitting someone armoured isn't a matter of "No penetration = safe, penetration = dead".

As for the OP's issue, I would be cautious lowering the cost of DR bought with points, and certainly wouldn't do it based on something like TL. What I might do is something like My. Rice's idea, and in a given setting offer cheap DR up to a certain threshold, though I'd probably require it's taken with 'Can't Wear Armour' or something like 'Inactive When Under Armour' so wearing armour means you don't get to use your purchased DR.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2020, 06:37 AM   #6
MrFix
 
MrFix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Aside from ETC rifles, UT is actually fairly good about this - most rifles do around 6d damage, and the improvement with TL is primarily in penetration. This is still a problem for armour, of course, but at least it means that the pink mist problems aren't too bad - hitting someone unarmoured isn't any worse than with modern guns, and hitting someone armoured isn't a matter of "No penetration = safe, penetration = dead".

As for the OP's issue, I would be cautious lowering the cost of DR bought with points, and certainly wouldn't do it based on something like TL. What I might do is something like My. Rice's idea, and in a given setting offer cheap DR up to a certain threshold, though I'd probably require it's taken with 'Can't Wear Armour' or something like 'Inactive When Under Armour' so wearing armour means you don't get to use your purchased DR.
ETC is what makes TL9 differ from TL8 in weapons department. TL10's HEMP is what makes it differ from TL9.

Without these upgrades, you're shooting TL8 guns at TL9-10 armor which is just bad times, so you resort to using the aforementioned, shooting people with GLs as shotguns etc.

At TL10, most handheld weapons such as Laser Rifles and Gauss Rifles cannot penetrate TL10 Assault Vest, but invalidate limb armor, so unless your troops are trained for them leg shots, they'll pursue HEMP as main bullet, or transfer them fully to Gauss Railguns and Sniper Rifles.

If you're not using TL10 weapons or TL10 armor, the question of DR shouldn't come up. But if you do, all you have are questions, especially 'How do I ensure there's moderate level of danger, not no danger and super danger his legs just flew away'
__________________
Your level of GURPS proficiency:
Pedestrian: 3e vs 4e
Proficient: Early 4e vs Late 4e
Master: Kromm vs PK

GURPS: Shooting things for fun and profit
MrFix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2020, 06:37 AM   #7
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
I don't think it should change much between 0 and 3. You're dealing almost entirely with muscle powered weapons dealing the same range of damage. If doing this, I might go with something like 5 points, minus 1/2 point per TL above 3.

On the other hand, I think low DR values retain a lot of usefulness. Most injuries that people face (even on the battlefield) are cuts, scrapes, and falls.
From what I've seen in my TL9-11 SF campaign, the most useful DR is the first 10 or so levels that's whole-body (this negates fragments from small arms and hand grenades and blast from all but contact hits with grenades, etc., and incidental falling damage, punches, animal bites, weapon attacks from normal people, etc.), and rigid DR10 neck armour (to protect against Neck Snaps and basic chokes). The next step up is armour with enough DR to protect against light small arms, and what DR that is depends on just what is common in your game.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2020, 06:48 AM   #8
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
At TL10, most handheld weapons such as Laser Rifles and Gauss Rifles cannot penetrate TL10 Assault Vest, but invalidate limb armor, so unless your troops are trained for them leg shots, they'll pursue HEMP as main bullet, or transfer them fully to Gauss Railguns and Sniper Rifles.
Laser rifles have about ten times the effective range of projectile rifles (due to having Acc 12), good rate of fire and Rcl 1. For close quarters projectile weapons will reign, but in more open environments lasers will, because aimed autofire will allow multiple hits on limbs (or even the neck) from outside effective projectile range (and I don't recall a rule that says that aimed shots must specify a location, so random hit locations are allowed, avoiding a hit penalty at the cost of possibly hitting armour for no damage). Unless people are wearing Combat Hardsuits and Space Combat Helmets laser rifles are a serious threat because of their accuracy, RoF, and Rcl.

In my experience (which may not be typical), player characters are very sensitive to limb hits because they tend to not have handy evac and are often a long way from support and really good medical facilities. Thus they care about full-body protection more than soldiers and police might - the latter want something that will keep them alive and not encumber them too much, but PCs want something that will also keep them in the fight.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2020, 06:57 AM   #9
MrFix
 
MrFix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Laser rifles have about ten times the effective range of projectile rifles (due to having Acc 12), good rate of fire and Rcl 1. For close quarters projectile weapons will reign, but in more open environments lasers will, because aimed autofire will allow multiple hits on limbs (or even the neck) from outside effective projectile range (and I don't recall a rule that says that aimed shots must specify a location, so random hit locations are allowed, avoiding a hit penalty at the cost of possibly hitting armour for no damage). Unless people are wearing Combat Hardsuits and Space Combat Helmets laser rifles are a serious threat because of their accuracy, RoF, and Rcl.

In my experience (which may not be typical), player characters are very sensitive to limb hits because they tend to not have handy evac and are often a long way from support and really good medical facilities. Thus they care about full-body protection more than soldiers and police might - the latter want something that will keep them alive and not encumber them too much, but PCs want something that will also keep them in the fight.
Wearing heavy abalative nonoplas jumpsuit (54 DR vs Lasers) allows you to deal with lasers over the entire body. Wear Assault Vest over torso for more durable, more universal protection. Unless your entire doctrine is based around "shoot him into leg 50 times and hope his armor will burn off", this is not really a god send. In fact it'll look silly and not thematic. No Cyberpunk or Sci-Fi adventure is underlined by 'leg meta'.

HEMP 10mm pistol meanwhile can only be stopped by at least 140 DR. This is what your PCs will pursue unless stopped.
__________________
Your level of GURPS proficiency:
Pedestrian: 3e vs 4e
Proficient: Early 4e vs Late 4e
Master: Kromm vs PK

GURPS: Shooting things for fun and profit
MrFix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2020, 07:16 AM   #10
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Wearing heavy abalative nonoplas jumpsuit (54 DR vs Lasers) allows you to deal with lasers over the entire body. Wear Assault Vest over torso for more durable, more universal protection. Unless your entire doctrine is based around "shoot him into leg 50 times and hope his armor will burn off", this is not really a god send. In fact it'll look silly and not thematic. No Cyberpunk or Sci-Fi adventure is underlined by 'leg meta'.
12 pounds weight, it's ablative so after the first hit from a laser rifle it's not protecting much against future laser rifle hits. Adding an assault vest (I assume you mean the Tactical Vest + plates on UT173) means another 18 pounds, and -1 DX for layering. Presumably there's a decent met in there as well, for another 5 pounds or so. Decent protection, for sure, and all at LC2, just like the Laser Rifle.

Quote:
HEMP 10mm pistol meanwhile can only be stopped by at least 140 DR. This is what your PCs will pursue unless stopped.
This, on the other hand, is LC1, and has a terrible effective range unless the user is very skilled.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
damage resistance, limitations, tech level

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.