Tech Level Question

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Yes, but most divergent histories do have a point of divergence.

Alternate History novels work that way. Stories based on contact with strange societies (often but not always aliens) don't, unless the strange society is also an alternate history.

The other problem with X+Y is that you can have multiple radically different things that are all denoted the same way. To give an extreme (and cinematic) example, I played in a GURPS Starcraft game some years back. That setting has Terrans that we can reasonably call some flavor of TL 9, and both Protoss and Zerg would be 0+9 -- but they're as dissimilar from one another as they are from Terran tech.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The other problem with X+Y is that you can have multiple radically different things that are all denoted the same way. To give an extreme (and cinematic) example, I played in a GURPS Starcraft game some years back. That setting has Terrans that we can reasonably call some flavor of TL 9, and both Protoss and Zerg would be 0+9 -- but they're as dissimilar from one another as they are from Terran tech.

That seems to me to be unavoidable. You need to have a reference society in most campaigns, and typically that will be the human one. The "+9" notation denotes that the other society diverges (radically) from the human one. The primary thing you need is to remember that two different 0+9 societies may be as alien to each other as they are to humans. But if you're going to go that way you need to have a matrix, or a tree diagram, or something, really. It's just not convenient to write that all down on a character sheet.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

It's just not convenient to write that all down on a character sheet.

Agreed, but the question is whether the X+Y notation is actually useful. Almost all variant tech paths in fiction where Y is more than 1 involve extensive TL^ stuff or are variants with no common root (so 0+Y), and there really isn't a meaningful mainline tech past 8, everything winds up at least somewhat customized.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I really don't see the point of your going on about this. Those categorizations were made in Steampunk, the first GURPS book to use the TL(m+n) notation, and GURPS Steam-Tech, which amplified it. Tho notation and the underlying conceptual structure had not been fully worked out back then; for one thing, the ^ notation for superscience hadn't even been thought of. There has been an entire new edition of GURPS since then, in which the basic convention has been maintained, but the details have been revised. So what you're talking about isn't current GURPS practice.

If you think that the notation is used unsatisfactorily in current GURPS supplements—for example, in the current GURPS Steampunk line—then why not furnish examples of the problem from something current? If you don't, then hasn't the problem been solved? Why go on about books that on one hand pioneered some new concepts but on the other did not have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It seems to me the passage you quoted already establishes that. It is equally important to establish that people from the divergent timeline wouldn't have a problem with certain technologies that visitors might bring as it is to establish that that the visitors wouldn't have problem with certain technologies that they might encounter on arrival. And really the default assumption with GURPS Steampunk seems to be an actual steampunk campaign with all the characters being native. The x+x notation in that situation just tells the GM what the point is where things stop being all the same.

GURPS Steampunk 1: Settings and Style (a 4e book) acknowledges the superscience aspects of much Steampunk. It more importantly retcons the TLs of two TL(4+x) worlds: Azoth-7 and Qabala.

Azoth-7: originally TL(4+2) (space travel and weapons are TL4^), now TL(4+2)^

Qabala: originally "TL is barely 5", now TL(4+2)^

GURPS Steampunk 2: Steam and Shellfire formalizes this change as seen by three of the items in the preview:

Elecrolabe - originally TL(5+1), now TL(5+1)^
Mesmeric Wand - originally TL(5+1), now TL(5+1)^
X-Ray Goggles - originally TL(5+1), now TL(6+1)^

So TL(x+y)^ is formally a thing and separate from TL(x+y).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Agreed, but the question is whether the X+Y notation is actually useful. Almost all variant tech paths in fiction where Y is more than 1 involve extensive TL^ stuff or are variants with no common root (so 0+Y), and there really isn't a meaningful mainline tech past 8, everything winds up at least somewhat customized.

I'd say extensive employment of superscience doesn't actually devalue the numbers.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Agreed, but the question is whether the X+Y notation is actually useful. Almost all variant tech paths in fiction where Y is more than 1 involve extensive TL^ stuff or are variants with no common root (so 0+Y),

Like what? I don't feel comfortable accepting this statement without something to back it up with.

and there really isn't a meaningful mainline tech past 8, everything winds up at least somewhat customized.

The point of TLs and split TLs and divergent TLs and superscience TLs is to customize, so everything is good. You use them to decide what's available on equipment lists, to work out skill familiarities, and to decide whether a given technology will work when transplanted to other worlds or areas. It is not one of the goals of TLs to paint a detailed picture of a society's technology, and it is not a goal to allow you to prescribe what technology should appear in any given setting. Once you get what you need out of it, you move on.

As for different divergent TLs with the same values: if you must distinguish between them, use a subscript or some other marker. The modern world where computers never got out of the home computer phase might be TL(7+1A), while the world where we didn't develop space materials might be TL(7+1B).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Agreed, but the question is whether the X+Y notation is actually useful. Almost all variant tech paths in fiction where Y is more than 1 involve extensive TL^ stuff or are variants with no common root (so 0+Y), and there really isn't a meaningful mainline tech past 8, everything winds up at least somewhat customized.

So they involve superscience. So what? I don't see how that has any bearing. As for mainline techs past 8, well that's where we rely on that mainstay, the "reference society". Let's take Star Trek. The Federation is TL 12. The Klingons have virtually identical technologies as befits another culture that has been bumping heads with them for a couple of centuries. They have the same shields, same warp drive, same anti-matter and fusion power sources. The Federation uses phasers and photon torpedoes, and the Klingons uses disruptors and photon torpedoes.

But the Romulans...the Romulans are different. They use pet black holes as power sources, cloaking devices instead of shields, and plasma torpedoes. TL 9+3 when they first show up. The Tholians are different too, but differently different. They don't have nacelles, and they use those weird net generators. Let's say 6+6. It kind of makes sense because the Tholians and the Romulans are both insular cultures, independently developed. But the difference between the Tholians and the Romulans doesn't even matter. They don't even meet each other. Their divergences only matter with regard to the reference society of the PCs.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

So they involve superscience. So what? I don't see how that has any bearing. As for mainline techs past 8, well that's where we rely on that mainstay, the "reference society". Let's take Star Trek. The Federation is TL 12. The Klingons have virtually identical technologies as befits another culture that has been bumping heads with them for a couple of centuries. They have the same shields, same warp drive, same anti-matter and fusion power sources. The Federation uses phasers and photon torpedoes, and the Klingons uses disruptors and photon torpedoes.

But the Romulans...the Romulans are different. They use pet black holes as power sources, cloaking devices instead of shields, and plasma torpedoes. TL 9+3 when they first show up. The Tholians are different too, but differently different. They don't have nacelles, and they use those weird net generators. Let's say 6+6. It kind of makes sense because the Tholians and the Romulans are both insular cultures, independently developed. But the difference between the Tholians and the Romulans doesn't even matter. They don't even meet each other. Their divergences only matter with regard to the reference society of the PCs.

That "The Federation is TL 12" is really highballing it (and likely based on the 3e Tech scale that both 3e and 4e versions of Prime Directive uses)

Based on the TOS episodes using the 3e system the Federation sits around TL(7+2).

In the current system huge hunks of Federation tech is superscience. Also per "Piece of the Action" and Worlds of the Federation a TL6 imitative (not inventive) culture has got to be able to replicate some TOS Federation tech with only one piece of that equipment to study. If they break it they can't learn enough to duplicate the tech.

So either the Federation is TL9 max and/or the transtator is superscience that can be studied and replicated as early as TL6.

The only true co-contemporary (rather then let's retroactively do current tech with old ala the Besler Steam Plane) TL(5+1) vs TL6 I know of and is clearly identifiable as such is the Speaking Mutoscope; TL(5+1) vs Lauste's 1907 sound on film method.

For some strange reason it is not noted that the Speaking Mutoscope was really invented under the name kinetoscope in 1896. In fact, Le Duel d'Hamlet starring Sarah Bernhardt was shown at the Paris Exposition in 1900. Sadly the cylinder recording that contained Sarah Bernhardt's voice has been lost (the picture itself has survived) but the ones from Cyrano de Bergerac (1900) and Little Titch y sus Big Boots (1900) have. These along with the 1912 Edison's Kinetophone demonstration film allows one to see examples of the technology.

What makes this Divergent Technology is that the Speaking Mutoscope used mechanical means so common to TL5 to sync picture and sound. Its TL6 counterpart used the electrical means that would be common at that TL.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The other problem with X+Y is that you can have multiple radically different things that are all denoted the same way. To give an extreme (and cinematic) example, I played in a GURPS Starcraft game some years back. That setting has Terrans that we can reasonably call some flavor of TL 9, and both Protoss and Zerg would be 0+9 -- but they're as dissimilar from one another as they are from Terran tech.

If the problem is only one of representation, you can do this by expressing TL as a vector space.
Humans: TL 8 x_1
Steampunk humans: TL 5 x_1 + 1 x_2
Protoss: TL 9 x_3
Zerg: TL 9 x_4
Or you can use quaternion notation with 4 or less divergent paths.

Luke

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

That "The Federation is TL 12" is really highballing it (and likely based on the 3e Tech scale that both 3e and 4e versions of Prime Directive uses)

No. It's based on Ultra-Tech.

Based on the TOS episodes using the 3e system the Federation sits around TL(7+2).

[/QUOTE]

Based on their economy, which is really the only solid measure they sit at 12.

In the current system huge hunks of Federation tech is superscience.

Well, obviously.

Also per "Piece of the Action" and Worlds of the Federation a TL6 imitative (not inventive) culture has got to be able to replicate some TOS Federation tech with only one piece of that equipment to study. If they break it they can't learn enough to duplicate the tech.

Worlds of the Federation is not a book I have, nor a book that has any authority. I mean I've seen a comic book with just as much authority where they hadn't matched the Federation's technology by more than a century later although they did have energy hand weapons by then. They'd just invented subspace radio but were still working on transporters and warp drive.

So either the Federation is TL9 max and/or the transtator is superscience that can be studied and replicated as early as TL6.

Or Kirk was just kidding. Because really did he seem even a little bit worried?