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Old 11-23-2018, 11:31 AM   #1
Boge
 
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Default Penalties on attacking multiple enemies with range (not rapid fire)?

I'm thinking Dual Weapon Attack Bow, firing two pistols at separate targets, maybe Rapid strike with throwing knives...

Say there are two enemies in front of me separated by a given space. At what distance am I allowed to attack both of them?

What angle, what degree between them could I Dual Weapon Attack with a bow?

What if they're at my sides? Can I rapid strike one with a knife and spin around and attack the other with another knife? Can I spread my arms out and blast both of them at the same time with two pistols?

What are the requirements for that? What would be penalties without the skills to do so?
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:44 PM   #2
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Default Re: Penalties on attacking multiple enemies with range (not rapid fire)?

If you have two ranged attacks thanks to dual-weapon attack or Rapid fire you can target two different enemies. They can be at any range as long as they are both viable targets (ie. within your field of vision). (see Gun Fu p.10).
So yes they could be on opposite sites or one at 10y ad one at 100y. Yes that pretty unrealistic.


For melee attacks using Deal-weapon attack it has to be one target or two targets adjacent to each other. (see Martial arts p.127-128).
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:14 PM   #3
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Default Re: Penalties on attacking multiple enemies with range (not rapid fire)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
I'm thinking Dual Weapon Attack Bow, firing two pistols at separate targets, maybe Rapid strike with throwing knives...
Dual Attack Bow is right out the window. It's a single weapon, Dual Weapon Attack requires two weapons, it's right there in the name.

Otherwise degree of separation is a non-issue.
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:31 PM   #4
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Penalties on attacking multiple enemies with range (not rapid fire)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Dual Attack Bow is right out the window. It's a single weapon, Dual Weapon Attack requires two weapons, it's right there in the name.

Otherwise degree of separation is a non-issue.
There's a trick-shot version of DWA for bows somewhere; it's appeared in a few movies too - Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves for one (Costner uses his teeth to strip one of the fletchngs off one arrow, fires two at once, hitting two targets).

Since the move is only appropriate in Cinematic Awesome genres, I'd probably allow it in a 60-degree cone, if I allowed it at all. -1 per die to damage for each projectile is about right, too.
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: Penalties on attacking multiple enemies with range (not rapid fire)?

You get the penalty for Rapid Fire or Dual Weapon Attack, range penalties to target, can only aim at the first one (If you take the time to aim at all), and normal environmental penalties such as possible cover or darkness or popup.

To help take Heroic archer,gunslinger or something similar that lets you get ACC without aiming. Enhanced Tracking which still takes the time to aim but lets you do it at multiple targets at the same time, see Gun Fu for an enhancement improving that.
I used to have a star cop in Traveler who could reliably shoot 3 people at a time using Extra Attack, Enhanced Tracking, and Weapon Master with Rapid Fire.
It wasnt the most point efficient build but gave me the option of 3 separate targets vs the other gunslinger who used Dual Weapon attack with two pistols who could only attack one or two targets. She could put out out 6 bullets per round to my 3 though.
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: Penalties on attacking multiple enemies with range (not rapid fire)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Dual Attack Bow is right out the window. It's a single weapon, Dual Weapon Attack requires two weapons, it's right there in the name.

Otherwise degree of separation is a non-issue.
MA83 mentions "DWA (Bow) lets you shoot two arrows at once from a bow, possibly at different targets!"

It does seem like it should be easier to fire 2 arrows a narrow angle apart (like 2 in the chest of a single enemy) than 2 at a wide arrow apart (like one arrow hitting a guy in your front-left hex and the other in a guy in your front-right hex)

If you wanted to assign some kind of realistic limit based on that, B409's "Spraying Fire" rules are the closest thing I can think of. It's not technically legal though because that's for RoF 5+ weapons

If you adapted them for DWA (Bow) instead of accumulating Recoil penalties for shots after the first, you're dealing with the -4 for DWA for both, so it seems pretty balanced out.

The limitation on targets being within a 30 degree arc sounds pretty reasonable for bows too. Here is a picture as best I understand it this means that Spraying Fire can't target 2 enemies in adjacent hexes if they are 1 hex away from the shooter, but might be able to attack them if they are both 2 hexes away?

The "lose one shot for each yard between targets" would save on any complicated geometry, although it seems like the angle between the targets would be more important than the distance, so maybe some kind of strike penalty based on the arc between them could be substituted?

Penalty on Rapid Fire attacks (B373-4) can result in fewer of them hitting, or it missing entirely. So instead of "no penalties until hard cap", penalties that eventually were so extreme that hitting targets more than 30 degrees apart becomes a superhuman effort could work as a soft cap. Maybe something like -1 per 3 degrees? -10 at 30 degrees apart is something most people couldn't make, but it would allow some mega-archer with 30 skill to try and hit 2 targets 60 degrees apart by taking -20 to skill and rolling at skill to.

I think I remember some other rule about calculating speed/range modifiers based on distance between 2 targets, but I can't remember the context (I want to say for the Warp advantage?) or if it could be adapted here.
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Old 11-23-2018, 03:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Penalties on attacking multiple enemies with range (not rapid fire)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
There's a trick-shot version of DWA for bows somewhere; it's appeared in a few movies too - Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves for one (Costner uses his teeth to strip one of the fletchngs off one arrow, fires two at once, hitting two targets).
I know, but... I wasn't sure which book it was in (and was too lazy to go hunting) and I'm not sure what books our OP is drawing from... so I decided to stay Basic.

Quote:
Since the move is only appropriate in Cinematic Awesome genres, I'd probably allow it in a 60-degree cone, if I allowed it at all. -1 per die to damage for each projectile is about right, too.
I'd require the targets to be in the same line of fire, IE if missing one could hit the other on a 9.

But that's me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
MA83 mentions "DWA (Bow) lets you shoot two arrows at once from a bow, possibly at different targets!"
Thanks!
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Old 11-23-2018, 08:25 PM   #8
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Default Re: Penalties on attacking multiple enemies with range (not rapid fire)?

Exoteleport in GURPS Psionic Powers talks about adding together distance modifiers. You add the distance from attacker to target with the distance from your target to your new desired destination...

An approach like that seems like it would be a good idea for DWA: Bow, so that the further apart your 1st and 2nd target are, the harder it is to move the arrows in that arc.

The only thing I don't like about it though is that it still focuses on distance between targets instead of angle between targets. Hitting targets a hex apart is 60 degree arrow-split at range 1, 30 degree split at range 2, 20 degrees at 3, 10 degrees at 6 and so on. Spraying Fire's hard cap of 30 degrees sounds like -1 per 3 degree increment could be reasonable.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:30 AM   #9
Boge
 
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Default Re: Penalties on attacking multiple enemies with range (not rapid fire)?

Little older topic, we've moved on to another campaign, but questions are still there.

I'd argue an increase in distance between the targets is irrelevant. It's the angle of shot that matters. It's as difficult to shoot two targets 30 degrees apart from 3 yards away as it would be 30 degrees apart at 20 yards away. The action on your bow is the same. The angle of your arms shooting two guns is the same, other than the height you need to adjust for the distance which already has its own penalties.

I've never shot a bow with two arrows. What angle is even possible?
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