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Old 02-14-2017, 03:27 PM   #21
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
In what manner is it more awkward and unconfortable? Do the inserts tend to move around as you do? Is it thicker than the breastplate+hauberk combination in some area? Does it restrict movement of the abdomen? Are your elbows constantly rubbing against it? If we can work out what it is that makes modern body armor with inserts unconfortable, we might be able to work out a good way to GURPS-ify the effect. This is particularly important to get a good differentiation because, unless that breatplate gave 4/6 or less protection to the chest, GURPS RAW would have it suffer layering penalties.
I'm not arguing that Low-Tech layering shouldn't cause penalties. I'm saying the contemporary armor layering probably also should.

The MTV in particular makes bending at the waist difficult, it is difficult to turn your head, it restricts your arm rotation, and you get these huge bruises on your sides and hips. Overall though it's a sum of factors that I probably don't exactly recall, since I haven't worn one in seven years, but that definitely add up to, as I said, awkward and uncomfortable.

As weby says upthread, E-SAPIs are 2cm thick, and you are wearing four of them, plus what 1 cm or so of kevlar and nylon (and then magazines, so another 3 cm or so on top of that on your belly). Renaissance breastplates weren't nearly close to that thickness.

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Old 02-14-2017, 03:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Modern body armor (especially the MTV clamshell) with SAPI (E-SAPIs for the MTV) is significantly more awkward and uncomfortable then layering a breastplate over maille hauberk and akethon.
Yeah, while I can accept that really well designed, manufactured and fitted modern stuff could in theory involve layers and not give a DX penalty.

It's not like TL1-4 stuff was just chucked on without effort to tailor it and make the layers work together as a wearable, integrated whole. Well OK barring munitions stuff which the ethos behind could apply just as much to TL8. People spent a lot of time and effort to make armour do it's job and not impede you while it did it.
The process may have been different, but I'm not sure the potential end result would have been that different. The real difference are in materials (so DR by weight) and design and manufacturing processes making it quicker and easier at higher TLs.
Of course since modern armours are higher DR, even with better DR per weight materials that doesn't mean your not wearing a lot of material.

As you point out it's not like modern torso armours designed to protect against modern threats are lighter or thinner than stuff doing the same job 400 years ago.

I've been toying with having armour just encumber as per it's weight*, and having stuff like different armours and layering reduce your AP in some way**. (Of course this only works if you use the AP/last gasp system). That way Armour acts as a potential limiting factor but if you compensate by acting with that in mind you can actually act without it directly impeding you. Experienced combatants will be less likely to be limited as they get more AP to play with.

If I did this though I'd certainly play up badly fitting armour or amour that hadn't gone though some kind tailoring, fitting or acclimatisation process. Even it goes as far as creating some kind of "armour bond" perk which removes or reduces the layering penalty.




*which is pretty much going to be worse as you layer up

** I do the same for environments you not acclimatised to and specific stuff like full helms, and a whole bunch of stuff. I'm a big fan of the last gasp system and find it a nimble way to model the impact of things that effect a persons operating comfort zone, without blanket stat penalities

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Old 02-14-2017, 03:46 PM   #23
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

The first thing you do when you get issued MTV is figure out which pieces you need, assemble and fit it, and put together the quick-release lanyard. It is miserable after it is fitted, I have no idea how bad wearing someone else's would be, but I'm guessing not fun at all.
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

Thanks for that, sir_pudding. From how you've described it, it looks like the primary issue with the MTV comes down to thickness. Converting cm to inches, each E-SAPI plate is roughly 4x as thick as the 0.2" limit* allows for with rigid armor. No wonder they're so uncomfortable! The OTV, which you note was also problematic albeit less so, would have trauma plates right at the 0.2" limit for rigid armor (assuming Advanced Ceramic, TL 8). Combined with the 0.3" of the OTV itself (assuming Improved Kevlar, which seems right for KM2), that's an effective (using my suggestion from earlier in the thread) 0.8" out of a maximum of 0.5", which is going to cause issues.

Unfortunately, that means we don't really have a data point to figure out if layered armor penalties are appropriate for flexible armor with trauma plates, as your experience that indicates it should may well have been simply because the armor you were wearing was too thick. In absence of other evidence, I'm going to assume both trauma plates and purpose-made rigid armor shouldn't suffer layering penalties, provided the total effective thickness isn't too great.

Just out of curiosity, any ideas on what sort of DX penalties would be appropriate for MTV and OTV?

*For whatever reason, stone, ceramic, and a few other rigid materials don't follow the 0.2" rule, but I don't see why those would be any more comfortable to wear at a given thickness than steel (aside from weight concerns, which are covered by encumbrance).

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Old 02-14-2017, 04:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

Thanks for that sir_pudding, it sounds like modern body armor is either still effectively 2 separate layers of armor (inspite of being designed to go together) or issued in a form that is even worse than munitions grade, and left on the soldiers to try and adjust it up to munitions grade. Maybe both.
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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The first thing you do when you get issued MTV is figure out which pieces you need, assemble and fit it, and put together the quick-release lanyard. It is miserable after it is fitted, I have no idea how bad wearing someone else's would be, but I'm guessing not fun at all.
It about 30lbs isn't it? So yeah bulkier and heavier than a lot of historical armours, better DR by weight/mass only goes so far when your needing enough DR to stop rifle bullets rather than arrows

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Old 02-14-2017, 04:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Unfortunately, that means we don't really have a data point to figure out if layered armor penalties are appropriate for flexible armor with trauma plates, as your experience that indicates it should may well have been simply because the armor you were wearing was too thick.
"Too thick" and "too many layers" seems equivalent to me.
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Just out of curiosity, any ideas on what sort of DX penalties would be appropriate for MTV and OTV?
Well "DX" is hard to quantify, but I would assume that once you took the encumbrance differences into account the difference between layering maille and plate, and aramid and ceramic are below GURPS resolution, so -1.

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Old 02-14-2017, 04:54 PM   #28
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Unfortunately, that means we don't really have a data point to figure out if layered armor penalties are appropriate for flexible armor with trauma plates, as your experience that indicates it should may well have been simply because the armor you were wearing was too thick.
Realistically speaking, layered armor causes problems for one or more of a small number of reasons:
  1. The resulting armor is too thick.
  2. The underlayer causes the top layer to slip around, usually because it's slippery or prevents a snug fit.
  3. The layers bind with one another, restricting mobility.
Solutions to the second problem often wind up creating the third problem. Note that cloth armors do not stretch well, meaning they have to be loose or you lose mobility, and it's hard to combine loose cloth with snugly fitting straps to hold the hard armor in place.
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Old 02-14-2017, 05:04 PM   #29
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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"Too thick" and "too many layers" seems equivalent to me.
The layering rules don't care about how thick the end result is, only that you're wearing armor on top of armor. Presumably, this would be because the outer layer is too tight of a fit with that inner layer in the way (hence my inclination to allow for an outer layer specifically designed to be an outer layer, with the result not giving any layering penalty).

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
"DX" is hard to quantify, but I would assume that once you took the encumbrance differences into account the difference between layering maille and plate, and aramid and ceramic are below GURPS resolution, so -1.
Interesting, and unexpected. I'll keep this data point in mind.
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Note that cloth armors do not stretch well, meaning they have to be loose or you lose mobility, and it's hard to combine loose cloth with snugly fitting straps to hold the hard armor in place.
That's not something I had considered. Is this an issue with cloth-like materials in general, or are there (likely to be) ballistic cloth materials that would work fine without needing to be loose?
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Old 02-14-2017, 05:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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That's not something I had considered. Is this an issue with cloth-like materials in general, or are there (likely to be) ballistic cloth materials that would work fine without needing to be loose?
Depends a little on what you mean by cloth? There are various ways you can create materials that can only bend in specific ways or at specific speeds; shear-thickening fluid is currently hot, but various sorts of sliding plates would likely also work. However, even then you probably want a bit of space under the armor.
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