10-30-2023, 08:33 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Oct 2023
|
Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
Per Martial Arts p. 95, the penalty from Rapid Strike is not supposed to be eligible for buyoff in techniques that include it, but many published techniques seem to violate this rule such as Whirlwind Attack from basic, Cleaving Strike and Greater Cleaving Strike from dungeon fantasy, and Spinning Attack from martial arts, to name a few.
Is it the case that rapid strike penalties CAN be bought off when used in a single large sweeping strike such as with whirlwind or cleaving strike? This seems plausible as it is one attack with multiple targets, not multiple attacks. This, however, would not explain Spinning Attack. I don’t know what is going on under the hood with Spinning Attack, but I assume it contains, at the least, Feint and Rapid Strike for two maneuvers against the same target but the penalty can be bought off all the way to prerequisite skill - 0. What am I missing here? Can other drawbacks in the technique offset the Rapid Strike penalty allowing the technique default to be improved to prerequisite skill - 0? Thanks! |
10-30-2023, 08:53 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
|
Re: Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
I'd have to check my copy of MA again, but I don't think Spinning Strike involves a Feint. You have to successfully roll against Spinning Strike to do it, and the target needs to fail their roll for in order to suffer a defense penalty, like Feint, but it's much less powerful in that it's a set penalty (-2 IIRC) rather than having the penalty depend on Margin of Victory. It's also rarely a good choice, even if you've invested in it.
Whirlwind Attack wasn't built to the guidelines in Martial Arts, and would have been difficult to do so anyway, given it can attack a theoretically-unlimited number of foes (typically it's going to be restricted to 6, one for each hex, but you could have multiple targets in each hex if they're small and/or grappling each other). I think the authors basically just piled up all the drawbacks they could think of (must be All Out but doesn't get any benefit from it; consumes all the movement you get from AoA; cannot be combined with any Techniques or esoteric skills; random hit location but with the targeted location still giving its full penalty; any critfail results in all subsequent attacks being critfails) and then tossed another -5 on top for good measure. As with Spinning Attack, I don't think Rapid Strike ever factored in. As for Cleaving Strike, again I'd have to check the origin of it (forget if it was a Pyramid article or a DF book), but I think the Under The Hood setup made it a Combination, which does allow you to buy off the Rapid Strike penalty. I don't think it has the drawbacks of requiring you to set the hit locations when buying the Combination (although I think it uses random hit locations, which has a similar effect) or of having the target(s) get a bonus to defend if they've seen it before (or getting such when one attack misses, although IIRC the whole sequence ends on the first miss, which is a much worse drawback), however. I think the biggest rule-bending involved is that it allows Barbarians and the like with sufficiently-high ST suffer only a -3 per additional attack, just like if they had Weapon Master or Trained by a Master, and I honestly don't think that's a huge deal in this case.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul Last edited by Varyon; 10-30-2023 at 08:55 AM. Reason: it's their != if they're, not sure how I messed that one up... |
10-30-2023, 09:09 AM | #3 |
Join Date: Oct 2023
|
Re: Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
Spinning attack defense penalty is based on margin of success just like a feint. It does include a bunch of other drawbacks though. But essentially it allows you to make a feint and attack on the same turn even though a bunch of things can go haywire if you screw it up. I haven’t been able to find anywhere where the authors explain what is happening under the hood, but I can’t see any other way to build it aside from feint and rapid strike.
Cleaving strike allows the user to select what hit location to attack for each new target and does continue on a miss - it stops if it is blocked, or doesn’t drop the target, knock them back, or sever the body part. So definitely a lot of drawbacks in there. Still, does that mean drawbacks in the technique CAN reduce the rapid strike penalty so the remaining penalty can be bought off? Or are all these cases instances of designer fiat? |
10-30-2023, 10:10 AM | #4 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2013
|
Re: Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
Quote:
Quote:
To my knowledge, Combinations can have Special Drawbacks and Special Benefits just as readily as normal Techniques can. The GM needs to be careful about just what Special Benefits are allowed, of course - "Target any Hit Location" and "No defense bonus when earlier attacks miss or are defended against" are both very potent for Combinations, as they run the risk of making it so that you can simply buy off the Rapid Strike penalty with no caveats. But the authors may have decided these particular Combinations were limited enough by circumstances that allowing for such Special Benefits was acceptable - Spinning Attack has a really heavy downside (providing I'm remembering how it works properly), and Cleaving Strike (and related) requires the attacks to target later foes, in addition to outright ending prematurely in many situations. So they probably aren't terribly abusable, and at least in the case of Cleaving Strike, there's the additional benefit that it simplifies the Technique (DF likes a degree of simplicity in play, hence why instead of having Techniques it gives Power Ups that include Techniques bought up to full).
__________________
GURPS Overhaul |
||
10-30-2023, 10:34 AM | #5 |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
|
Re: Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
Martial Arts, page 80. Optional Rule: Combinations.
This is what all the things you listed use. |
10-30-2023, 10:50 AM | #6 | |
Join Date: Oct 2023
|
Re: Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
Quote:
So it is useful against foes that have high active defenses if your melee skill is much higher than theirs as it allows margins to come into play rather than just success/failure. Same as a feint, I suppose, but executed in the same turn as the attack (with a laundry list of drawbacks). |
|
10-30-2023, 10:55 AM | #7 | |
Join Date: Oct 2023
|
Re: Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
Quote:
And Whirlwind definitely is not a combination as the author has posted all the underlying components. I haven’t seen anything about what Cleaving Strike and Greater Cleaving Strike are, but at least the Greater version can’t be a combination either as it exceeds the maximum number of allowed attacks in a combination. Edit: actually, neither version of cleaving strike can be combinations as they both allow the selection of hit locations “on the fly” - which is forbidden by the combination rules. Last edited by ebonfowl; 10-30-2023 at 11:25 AM. |
|
10-31-2023, 02:39 AM | #8 |
Join Date: Jun 2022
|
Re: Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
Part of what you're missing is these are made as Power-Ups, so they aren't "just Techniques". GMs can do whatever they want when building things for their campaigns, and price adjustment, prerequisites, and limits are just a few things a GM might ignore when building powers.
|
10-31-2023, 02:58 AM | #9 |
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
Re: Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
__________________
Farmer Mortal Wombat "But if the while I think on thee, dear friend All losses are restored and sorrows end." |
10-31-2023, 03:42 AM | #10 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
|
Re: Rapid Strike in Techniques Question
Quote:
So, the Technique starts life as Rapid Strike, Feint and Attack, at -6. Limited maneuver selection I don't think is a legitimate drawback (it should be IMO, but isn't). The Feint QC potentially giving a bonus is, for +1. Deceptive Attack being Nerfed is as well, for another +1. The default penalty assumes Committed (Dedicated) Attack, which is a further +2 (and note this is why All Out (Strong) Attack is at -2 to skill), bringing us to our total of -2. Kicks have a further drawback, in that the check to avoid falling on a miss is penalized, for a +1, hence why they're at -3 instead of -4. There should probably be a further -1 to account for the fact it does stack with a preceding Feint. Cleaving Strike is explained in Pyramid #3/61. It's a 3-attack Rapid Strike, for -6 to hit (as it assumes the character has TbaM/WM). It gets a further -1 for the special benefit of giving the target a penalty to avoid falling down. The drawbacks, good for +1 each, are:
For a grand total of -3. And, as is clear from each of these (and the linked Krommpost explaining Whirlwind Attack), it would appear your original supposition was indeed correct - in these cases, the penalty for Rapid Strike is allowed to be bought off without having to go through the hassle of Combination. And, honestly, these aren't alone - the rules for Fast Firing Bows basically have you using Rapid Strike with the first attack serving as a Ready, and Quick-Shot (DF11:33) lets you buy off this penalty. I'd say the take-home from all this is that, yes, it can be appropriate to allow buying off the penalty for Rapid Strike, but only under very specific circumstances - that is, the GM needs to examine any such Technique suggested by a player with a fine-toothed comb.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul |
|
|
|