Collisions (4th edition)

[Darth Diablo]

Hi everyone.
Im a newbie here, its my first thread so please bear with me.
Im having a heck of a time figuring out the collision rules in Car Wars.
In particular, REAR end collisions.

The way its written looks like it could be translated in more than one way, and add DM snd TST (temporary speed, what?)

Id like to think im above average in the intelligence dept, but can anyone walk me through this?

My playtest has been on hold for 2 days until I finally broke down and registered here to ask the pros.
I can explain more in detail once this discussion (hopefully) ramps up.

Thanks in advance, Been a big fan of SJGs games since the mid 80s, but was too young to comprehend the rules (kinda like right now, except now im 41, Lol

Thx in advance!
DRIVE OFFENSIVELY
-Darth Diablo

[Parody]

Assuming the rear vehicle (RV) is faster than the front vehicle (FV) and both vehicles are going the same direction:

The collision speed is ((RV's Speed) - (FV's Speed)), rounded up to the nearest 5. Each vehicle does damage to the other using this speed (modified by their DM).

The final speed of both vehicles is ((RV's Speed) * (RV's TST modifier)) + ((FV's Speed) * (FV's TST modifier)). Both components are rounded up to the nearest 5.

The rear vehicle does not finish its movement for the phase if its DM is equal or less than the front vehicle's DM.

The hazard (and chance for concussion, if using that rule) for each vehicle is ((Vehicle's Speed Change) / 10), rounded up.

Does that help any?

[Darth Diablo]

anything helps, but now that i have your attention, id like to breakdown what im doing in very detailed steps so i am clear on this rear collision equation/formula.

Im a wargamer at my core, so registering damage in the middle of the turn threw me off at first (thanks to my OCD Lol)

With that said, lets begin:

So far, this is how Ive translated it:


-FV (DM 3/4) is traveling at 60mph
-RV (DM 1) is pursuing FV at 70 mph and then rams FV directly from behind

-According to the formula, this collision speed is 10mph, right?

-10mph has a Ram damage of 1d-2

-I rolled a 4... Which means the base damage is "2"

So that means RV hits FV and since RVs DM is "1" that would mean its full damage of 2 to FV... Correct?

I have no idea how to register damage to RVs front end yet (I use FV DM of 3/4 and round down to 1 point of damage?

lets stop here before I take on to much... Id like this part 100% clear before i move on to the rest of the turn.

I appreciate you taking time to work on this with me

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

anything helps, but now that i have your attention, id like to breakdown what im doing in very detailed steps so i am clear on this rear collision equation/formula.

Im a wargamer at my core, so registering damage in the middle of the turn threw me off at first (thanks to my OCD Lol)

With that said, lets begin:

So far, this is how Ive translated it:


-FV (DM 3/4) is traveling at 60mph
-RV (DM 1) is pursuing FV at 70 mph and then rams FV directly from behind

-According to the formula, this collision speed is 10mph, right?

-10mph has a Ram damage of 1d-2

-I rolled a 4... Which means the base damage is "2"

So that means RV hits FV and since RVs DM is "1" that would mean its full damage of 2 to FV... Correct?

I have no idea how to register damage to RVs front end yet (I use FV DM of 3/4 and round down to 1 point of damage?

lets stop here before I take on to much... Id like this part 100% clear before i move on to the rest of the turn.

I appreciate you taking time to work on this with me

I'm assuming you mean DM 2/3 for the front vehicle (since there isn't a 3/4).

So you have the front vehicle with a DM of 2/3 going 60 and the rear vehicle with a DM of 1 going 70.

Going through the rear-end collision procedure on page 20 of the Classic rulebook step by step:

1. The front vehicle is V2 and the rear is V1.
2. Collision speed is 10 (70-60). Consulting the movement chart on page 7, this is 1d-2 damage. You rolled a 4, yielding a base of 2 damage. The front car (V2) deals 1 point to the front armor of the rear car (2 x 2/3, round down). The rear car (V1) deals 2 points to the back armor of the front car (2 x1).
3. a. Consulting the Temporary Speed Table on page 21, shows 1/2 for both vehicles. The front car's temporary speed is 30 (60 x 1/2) and the rear car's temporary speed is 35 (70 x 1/2).
3.b. Change the speed of both cars to 65 (30+35)
3.c. move the markers
3.d. The rear vehicle has a higher DM than the front one, so it finishes its move, with V1 conforming, per the diagram at the bottom of page 20.
4. If you're using the concussion from rams you'd roll now. There's no chance of a concussion with this collision though - the speed change is 5 mph, which means you'd have a concussion if you rolled less than a 1 (5/10 rounded up) on two dice.
5. Both cars take a D1 hazard (5/10, rounded up, with a minimum of 1).

[juris]

MS is absolutely right on the rules

Math is fun. So is common sense :)

Its a 10 mph ram because a rear end collision is the difference in speed (70-60)

Ram damage is 2 points, each vehicle takes ram damage based on the other vehicle's DM, so multiply the damage by the other vehicle's DM. Common sense, if you smash into the rear of a truck (DM 10) you are going to have a bad day and take 20 points of damage (2x10).

Speed after ram: if it's a rear end collision both vehicles are going to end up going the same speed. One is going 60 and the other 70 so... 65 is the final speed for both.

So... same result no algebra.

[Darth Diablo]

Wow man, you pretty much nailed it, I get it now!
Such a great method of resolving a realistic collision, this game seems to be a pretty accurate recreation for a simulator game!
Impressed with this game the more im learning about it.

Yes, thanks for the correction, my vehicle was indeed 2/3rds thanks for pointing that out.

You guys are car wars champs in my book.

4 more (less complicated) questions:


1.) What exactly determines the way a car would spin out when hit directly from behind?
I see black dots on the diagram on page 20 but they dont look like impact points.

im assuming because it was a DIRECT hit from behind that it never deviates from its original course after impact... Right?
It just scoots along with the other guy tailgating,right?
I get the spin part if it was an intentional P.I.T. manuever, but then again im a photographer... Not a car forensics type

2.) Are collisions always a D1? Or does that depend on the situation?
I guess I missed that part when I was reading the rules.

3.)I know the concussion rule is a more advanced rule, but im curious if it is a valuable rule outside of competitive play, because it certainly looks to be another layer of procedure that would maybe slow down a newer player until they got the hang of it.

4.) How the heck did gamers get support to clarify rules back in the 80s?
Boy o boy, the internet really helps out in this department nowadays! Woot Woot!!!

THANKS!

-DD

[Parody]

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

1.) What exactly determines the way a car would spin out when hit directly from behind? ...

Conforming from a collision (not spinning out from a crash table result) we would move it straight forward, as you said.

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

2.) Are collisions always a D1?

Collision hazards are based on the vehicle's speed change. In your example they're only changing speed by 5 MPH, so it's a D1. If, say, a vehicle going 70 MPH hit a wall head-on, the speed change would be 70 MPH (70->0) and the hazard would be a D7.

As always, hazards are modified by HD Shocks, if you have them.

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

3.)I know the concussion rule is a more advanced rule, but im curious if it is a valuable rule outside of competitive play, because it certainly looks to be another layer of procedure that would maybe slow down a newer player until they got the hang of it.

It's a mild ram deterrent. Our group uses it in all duels.

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

4.) How the heck did gamers get support to clarify rules back in the 80s?

They decided on their own or sent letters to SJG. Later on they had a BBS; I was never on it back then but I imagine you could have posted questions there.

Glad you're enjoying Car Wars! :)

[josephrey]

Hola!

If the collision is directly from behind and the crash result is a spinout, we roll a die to determine spinout direction randomly.

There will definitely be a few instances where common sense can dictate what would seem more realistic, but be careful, as that's a VERY slippery slope. There are probably rules arguments from the 80's STILL happening. :)

If everyone at the table can't come to a decision as to how a rule is interpreted, again the die is used to come up with a result and to move on with the game.

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

Wow man, you pretty much nailed it, I get it now!
Such a great method of resolving a realistic collision, this game seems to be a pretty accurate recreation for a simulator game!
Impressed with this game the more im learning about it.

Yes, thanks for the correction, my vehicle was indeed 2/3rds thanks for pointing that out.

You guys are car wars champs in my book.

4 more (less complicated) questions:

For a lot of folks, 4th edition Car Wars is still the gold standard for car combat games because it does a pretty good job of simulating car movement.

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

1.) What exactly determines the way a car would spin out when hit directly from behind?
I see black dots on the diagram on page 20 but they dont look like impact points.

im assuming because it was a DIRECT hit from behind that it never deviates from its original course after impact... Right?
It just scoots along with the other guy tailgating,right?
I get the spin part if it was an intentional P.I.T. manuever, but then again im a photographer... Not a car forensics type

The rule of thumb that I use when picking which corner to pivot the car on is to use the corner on the impacted side (or sides if you're hitting a corner) which is the farthest from the center of the point of impact.

In the case of a square hit right in the middle of a side where there are multiple corners which are equally distant, we let the rammer pick which of the two he/she wants the other car to conform on (the reasoning here being that as he/she can alter the point of impact slightly to favor their choice).

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

2.) Are collisions always a D1? Or does that depend on the situation?
I guess I missed that part when I was reading the rules.

Nope. D1 per 10 mph of speed change, or per 10 mph of swipe speed for sideswipes), with a minimum of D1.

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

3.)I know the concussion rule is a more advanced rule, but im curious if it is a valuable rule outside of competitive play, because it certainly looks to be another layer of procedure that would maybe slow down a newer player until they got the hang of it.

I generally don't use the concussion rule in tournaments that I run, as it makes players sit and do nothing, which isn't fun for new players.

Originally Posted by Darth Diablo

4.) How the heck did gamers get support to clarify rules back in the 80s?
Boy o boy, the internet really helps out in this department nowadays! Woot Woot!!!

THANKS!

-DD

As previously mentioned, you typed up questions and sent them in with an SASE.

And this just jogged my memory. I think that I might still have one with a bunch of questions that I sent in years ago and got a response back from SJG. I want to say that it even have had answers to some stuff that never appeared in ADQ. Time to go rummage through my collection, it might be worth sharing.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Originally Posted by juris

Speed after ram: if it's a rear end collision both vehicles are going to end up going the same speed. One is going 60 and the other 70 so... 65 is the final speed for both.

So... same result no algebra.

That works if the DMs are fairly close. If we are talking say a cycle (1/3 DM) and a loaded Semi (19DM), well if the cycle rear ends the semi, the semi hardly notices as even flattened against the rear the cycle lacks the relative mass to move the semi appreciably. The Semi rear ending the cycle, well won't be slowed enough to matter, same deal.