Alt History: Israel loses in 1948

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Still neophilia beats necrophilia, the consequences are less vile. Unless you've got Stalin in charge. But everything's worse with Stalin in charge.

The only consequence for necrophilia is maybe getting tickled by carrion beetles if you didn't find your love interest soon enough. Oh you meant consequences from the friends and family of the deceased?

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

David Johnston2 has it right. The Utopian future of the Nazis, Japanese Militarists, Fascists, et al, was a fantasy of the past. The same fantasy grocery stores sell when they speak of "Farm Fresh" anything, and "Home Cooked Goodness." The Communists sold a Utopian future of technocratic wonders, just like a car comercial.

Steampunk and Ren Faires are all about white washed pasts as fun for the present and future.
Modern advertising is also all about meaningless nostalgic buzz words devoid of all today's "nasties" yet still containing all the good of the past even when they're mutually exclusive.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

David Johnston2 has it right. The Utopian future of the Nazis, Japanese Militarists, Fascists, et al, was a fantasy of the past. The same fantasy grocery stores sell when they speak of "Farm Fresh" anything, and "Home Cooked Goodness." The Communists sold a Utopian future of technocratic wonders, just like a car comercial.

That was one of Arnold Toynbee's favorite themes, the mirror-image tendency of people to try to skip out of their own place and time, in search of imaginary utopias in the past or future. He thought they were both basically the same thing.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Still neophilia beats necrophilia, the consequences are less vile.

On balance, that's questionable. The ghastly consequences of 'future utopianism' were by no means confined to Stalinist Russia. Mao tried more or less that in China, the Khmer Rouge tried it in Cambodia, Lenin was trying it with bloody results before Stalin came to power.

The problem with both neophilia and necrophilia, in the contexts we're talking about, is the utopian element of trying to replace a real thing, a real society, whatever its faults or virtues, with an imaginary, abstract one, whether an idealized past or an idealized future or whatever.

In each case, you have to remove the real one to have space for the imaginary one to exist...

[smurf]

This has degenerated.

How would the Us/UK orientate to a non Israel middle East?

1953 was Operation Ajax
1956 was Suez crisis
1958 General Kassim 8n Iraq

With a Arab and Jewish state there would be no: 6 day war, Munich, Yom Kippur etc...

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by smurf

This has degenerated.

How would the Us/UK orientate to a non Israel middle East?

1953 was Operation Ajax
1956 was Suez crisis
1958 General Kassim 8n Iraq

With a Arab and Jewish state there would be no: 6 day war, Munich, Yom Kippur etc...

There isn't going to be an Arab and Jewish state. The neighbouring states will divvy up the proceeds of their attack, lock up the Jews in refugee/concentration camps (and possibly fight over the proceeds of their attack). The United States will continue to try to make anti-communist alliances in the Middle East, and depose leaders who won't play where they can. The Russians will continue to train terrorists to attack the western imperialists.

[smurf]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

There isn't going to be an Arab and Jewish state. The neighbouring states will divvy up the proceeds of their attack, lock up the Jews in refugee/concentration camps (and possibly fight over the proceeds of their attack). The United States will continue to try to make anti-communist alliances in the Middle East, and depose leaders who won't play where they can. The Russians will continue to train terrorists to attack the western imperialists.

Russians train terrorists, everybody trains terrorists.

It was an 'alt History'.

You know historically Moscow was the best at making anti-communist alliances. How many left groups were sold down the river is nigh uncountabe.

Most of the Middle East is under French or British control. So the idea that these states can 'divvy' up is pretty much a moot point.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by smurf

Russians train terrorists, everybody trains terrorists.

It was an 'alt History'.

You know historically Moscow was the best at making anti-communist alliances. How many left groups were sold down the river is nigh uncountabe.

And entirely irrelevant to the history of the Middle East.

Most of the Middle East is under French or British control.

No it isn't. It's post-1948 after all.