Subsidized Universal Genetic Engineering [Biotech/Space]

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I societies will probably be struggling to convince people to have children at all. Children take up a lot of time and money, .

Toss in Deep Sleeper for free and that will help. :)

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Not keeping the full suite of Traits is certainly possible. Indeed it's likley but having less work to do genefixing the next generation is a positive thing.

It's not going to be amtter of high ideals or theoretical possibilities either. .

High ideas and theoretical possibilities aside once you standardize your entire population you have created a situation which is ideal for a custom made bacteriological weapon to wipe the whole genome.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ericthered

That sounds right. Once the bulk of the population embraces the technology, they take pity on those who don't have it, and that's when the subsidies kick in.

I want to point out Ken MacLeod's novel Intrusion, where a pill is available that eradicates a wide range of genetic defects. The mother of a hyperactive four-year-old is pregnant, and has been offered the pill to take to affect her second child. She refuses. She is faced with possible criminal charges for child neglect. This of course goes beyond "subsidy."

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

High ideas and theoretical possibilities aside once you standardize your entire population you have created a situation which is ideal for a custom made bacteriological weapon to wipe the whole genome.

Heinlein's Beyond This Horizon has a population of "control naturals": genetically unimproved humans who were paid an annual subsidy by the government to compensate them for their decreased ability to compete with improved humans, because they were providing the service of keeping wild type genes alive in case they were needed, as well as providing a baseline for comparisons.

[AlexanderHowl]

With HT 13, Fit, and Resistant to Disease (+8), I doubt that there is an infectious agent that could threaten the Universals that would not annihilate baseline humans. We are not talking about people that are related, we are talking about using tailored viruses to replace worse genes with better genes, the genotype of the upgrading humans would otherwise be different, and these are genes that already exist within the human population. I would be more worried about someone releasing a biological agent to kill off the baseline humans, as a disease that requires a HT-6 roll to survive would kill off 2% of the Universals, but it would kill off 98% of baseline humans.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

With HT 13, Fit, and Resistant to Disease (+8), I doubt that there is an infectious agent that could threaten the Universals that would not annihilate baseline humans. We are not talking about people that are related, we are talking about using tailored viruses to replace worse genes with better genes, the genotype of the upgrading humans would otherwise be different, and these are genes that already exist within the human population. I would be more worried about someone releasing a biological agent to kill off the baseline humans, as a disease that requires a HT-6 roll to survive would kill off 2% of the Universals, but it would kill off 98% of baseline humans.

I don't see why an infectious agent couldn't target whatever DNA sequence confers any particular one of the advantages. You can't just grant an advantage as an abstract concept; you have to grant DNA with a specific sequence that codes for a specific protein, or maybe sequences the production of proteins in a specific way. And any such sequence can itself then be attacked. That seems to be an unavoidable consequence of the Turing theorem.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

With HT 13, Fit, and Resistant to Disease (+8), I doubt that there is an infectious agent that could threaten the Universals that would not annihilate baseline humans.

Since it would be designed to go after someone who was Resistant to Disease there's no reason to expect it to have any significant symptoms when contracted by a normal. They might catch it and they certainly wouldn't make their resistance roll if they did, but they wouldn't experience a lethal cytokine storm from resisting it.

[AlexanderHowl]

Disease resistance likely involves hundreds of genes across dozens of chromosomes, all of which are just variations of genes that every animal possesses. They would relate to everything from cell wall durability to fungal identification to T-cell regulation. It would be impossible to design a single virus to target anyone with those genes because every animal has those genes.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Disease resistance likely involves hundreds of genes across dozens of chromosomes, all of which are just variations of genes that every animal possesses. They would relate to everything from cell wall durability to fungal identification to T-cell regulation. It would be impossible to design a single virus to target anyone with those genes because every animal has those genes.

Clearly every animal does NOT have those genes, or every animal would have Disease Resistance +8, which does not seem to be the case.

A trait that involves a whole lot of different genes is going to involve a huge amount of genetic engineering, and should cost a lot and be available at a higher TL. But on one hand, it's not clear that this has to be the case; maybe what's being done is a tweak that makes the immune system more efficient while insulating against autoimmune disorders. And on the other hand, suppose it is? Now you have, say, a score or a hundred code sequences on different chromosomes, sequences that unmodified humans don't have, and you only need to tailor your hostile virus to attack a single one of those sequences; what you describe has increased the number of vulnerabilities and potential exploits.

[Varyon]

Part of the backstory of the webcomic Genocide Man was the release of a proteus virus that markedly boosted human immunity, protecting them from the engineered plagues that were ravaging the world at the time. It also reduced human aggression, helping to prevent future wars. Of course, as a highly-contagious gene-tweaking plague, it also managed to kill nearly a billion people, but presumably AlexanderHowl's suggestion would be for a more controlled release. The upgrade did not prevent future engineered viruses from working, although by the time things stabilized the group that released the plague had taken enough control and setup enough surveillance they were able to prevent most future releases, largely because someone would have to do fresh research to find the new methods needed to make working plagues (the release was done in secret, and prior research modified to make it look like the new sequences introduced were always part of the human genome).

AlexanderHowl's suggestion wouldn't have that last advantage, of course, seeing as by its nature it's going to be publicly known and well-researched, meaning creating engineered plagues should be readily doable. Also, whoever sets it up won't be in control of the world, with secret police brutally taking out anyone problematic with excessive force. Of course, there will be a lot of fear that something untoward (like the aggression reduction of the above Guayaquil complex) is being introduced alongside the immune-system tweaks, particularly for the subsidized version being offered to low-income families. It's a good upgrade for some humans, but applying it to all (or even most) humans is going to be an uphill battle (and for good reason, honestly).