Realistic stats for a marathon runner

[JulianLW]

Fred, here's the situation I'm thinking of: the average runner starts sprinting, spending 1 FP. Over the first minute, he rolls four times (each 15 seconds) and risks losing 4 more FP. By the end of one minute, he's possibly down by 5 FP. At the start of minute 2, he spends another FP, and now, he's 15 seconds away from being down 7 FP and slowing to 1/3 his move from exhaustion. This scenario would become a lot more likely for any runner if the running rules were revised so that all running feats had to roll vs. Running skill rather than Running or HT. And I think that does model reality a little better than the existing rules.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Fred, here's the situation I'm thinking of: the average runner starts sprinting, spending 1 FP. Over the first minute, he rolls four times (each 15 seconds) and risks losing 4 more FP. By the end of one minute, he's possibly down by 5 FP. At the start of minute 2, he spends another FP, and now, he's 15 seconds away from being down 7 FP and slowing to 1/3 his move from exhaustion. s.

Your scenario requires that a HT 10 runner fail 5 rolls in a row. That's a 1 in 32 possibility and really shouldn't be taken as the default.

The odds are what I said they were last night and your HT 10 guy runs as fast as he possibly can for more than 2 minutes. This is not humanly possible.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The odds are what I said they were last night and your HT 10 guy runs as fast as he possibly can for more than 2 minutes. This is not humanly possible.

As fast as one could possibly run in GURPS should probably include Extra Effort, perhaps based on something like Might Step.

[AlexanderHowl]

Even then, you are only paying 1 FP per roll. A character with HT 12, Will 20, Natural Athlete 4, and Running (A) HT+6 would be rolling against a 18 every 15 seconds to avoid normal fatigue and a 26 every 15 seconds for extra effort. Assuming that they want a 16 on their extra effort roll, they could get a +50% to their effective move, meaning that a Basic Move 7 individual would sprint at an effective move of 12.6. A maximum human would be sprinting at an effective move of 27.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Your scenario requires that a HT 10 runner fail 5 rolls in a row. That's a 1 in 32 possibility and really shouldn't be taken as the default.

The odds are what I said they were last night and your HT 10 guy runs as fast as he possibly can for more than 2 minutes. This is not humanly possible.

Fred, what's not humanly possible is what's in the current rules. However, making sprinting a finite measure like breath holding is not realistic, either. What I'm proposing is that you make Running depend on Running skill rather than the higher of Running or HT, which means that the average person, per normal GURPS rules, can sprint for about three minutes at top speed. If Running is dependent on Running skill, then the average HT 10 guy rolling against Running at default fails every one of those rolls. This is the rules change I'm proposing as more realistic, and I'm quite sure it's more realistic than the given rules, without much more complexity - and certainly a better fix than your suggestion of making running a flat 4xHT, which doesn't accurately reflect what competitive runners actually do. My fix also has the virtue of making Running skill matter.

I care about this because I am a marathoner, and I've always appreciated the fact that GURPS does, in fact, model reality quite well. Also, you're a real bowl of sunshine. I hope folks have told you.

[Kromm]

I know many real-life marathoners. Most are retired people who have the time for it. They are not young, and in many cases they aren't "generically fit" in ways that transfer to other activities. (Example: Two are tango dancers who find dancing for hours both hard on their feet and tiring, and cannot stay on the floor for even half as long as I can . . . but I cannot run a marathon.) They still make decent time, generally within minutes of their adult children who are a full generation younger and fitter.

I think "realistic stats for a marathon runner" are "Running skill at above HT." Just let it replace HT for all possible purposes related to marathons. I'd even include "calculating Basic Move and FP for that one purpose." So someone with DX 10, HT 10, and Running-14 [16] operates at Move 6 and FP 14 when running. They work out their time using this Move and effectively "ignore" the first 4 FP they lose.

Young people might get there by having higher HT, giving higher levels with all HT-based skills, higher Basic Speed and thus Basic Move for all purposes, and higher FP for all purposes. Older people might rely on experience, meaning high skill earned by training for hundreds of hours every year for 40+ years.

It may or may not be "points efficient," but that wasn't the question. Real-life people are almost never optimized in that way. They just have what they have. Min-maxing a character is admitting that on some level the character is cinematic, not realistic.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think "realistic stats for a marathon runner" are "Running skill at above HT." Just let it replace HT for all possible purposes related to marathons. I'd even include "calculating Basic Move and FP for that one purpose." So someone with DX 10, HT 10, and Running-14 [16] operates at Move 6 and FP 14 when running. They work out their time using this Move and effectively "ignore" the first 4 FP they lose.

Great. Now let's see how we can abuse this... :o)

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anders

Great. Now let's see how we can abuse this... :o)

Not easily. For the 16 points needed to get +1 to Basic Move and +4 to FP for this one purpose, you could get most of the way to Basic Move +1 [5] and FP +4 [12] for all purposes. You save a point and you're hyper-specialized. It isn't efficient; it's just more realistic.

Though if the GM is into DX-based Running rolls for things like chases and Parkour, there's a lot more incentive to have high Running. The high Basic Move, high FP optimizer will, DX being equal, be at -4 in those circumstances and generally end up evaded or caught by the trained runner. Which is also realistic, really.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think "realistic stats for a marathon runner" are "Running skill at above HT." Just let it replace HT for all possible purposes related to marathons. I'd even include "calculating Basic Move and FP for that one purpose." So someone with DX 10, HT 10, and Running-14 [16] operates at Move 6 and FP 14 when running. They work out their time using this Move and effectively "ignore" the first 4 FP they lose.

I like this and think applying it as a broader rule for all movement would be a nice boost to those skills, which seem to be rarely taken. Maybe replace the Sprinting and Hiking bonus with it. Thats generally +1 BM and +2 limited FP for 8 points in running, swimming, or hiking compared to 9 for +1 BM and +2 FP which is far more broadly useful.

As it is now if your HT is high enough there is little point in taking Hiking, Running or Swimming, especially past attribute level for 1 or 2 points.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Fred, what's not humanly possible is what's in the current rules.u.

I've pointed that out myself many times. I just think your proposed solution is a bad idea.

Nobody would have any long distance running ability until they taught themselves Running skill.