Question Regarding Combat Harduits (TL9)

[Siliconhobbit]

Do Combat Hardsuits (TL9), Ultra-Tech pg179 under Sealed Combat Armor incorporate an NBC Suit (environment suit) within the armor itself or does one need to wear a separate NBC suit altogether before donning a full Combat Hardsuit?

I'm confused as Ultra-Tech lists the Combat Hardsuit under the Sealed Combat Armor section and the Hardsuit description itself mentions that it has an inner lining that provides some other features AND if combined with either a combat infantry helmet or space helmet, the suit is sealed, with climate control, and radiation protection (plus other features listed under the helmet description).

This would lead me to believe that the Combat Hardsuit's inner lining that was referred to, is in fact a full environment suit (NBC suit) built into the full set of armor and does not require an additional purchase beyond the Hardsuit itself.

On the flip-side however, the Basic Set book lists the Combat Hardsuit with four notes: [3,4,5,6] with #5 being Requires NBC Suit skill. This would lead me to believe that the Hardsuit requires the user to purchase an additional Environment suit (of the type they need for the situation), and they would need to invest in the Environmental Suit skill.

Ultimately, my questions are:

#1 Does the Combat Hardsuit & the Combat Infantry Helmet have an environmental suit built into them, eliminating the need to purchase a separate environmental suit?
#2 If it does, does the user still have to invest skill points in the Environmental Suit Skill?

[Tinman]

#1) The armors in Ultra-Tech do not include helmets so they are unsealed with out one. However with an appropriate helmet (some are sealed & some are not) then the suit is sealed.

#2) As to the NBC suit skill: Anyone could put a hardsuit on & benefit from it's DR. However, if you want to seal the suit you need the skill. Also note that when wearing an NBC suit (including a hardsuit) the user's DX (DX based skills) are limited to their NBC suit level. (Default level is DX-5 for DX penalties but no default for sealing the suit.)

[Siliconhobbit]

Originally Posted by Tinman

#1) The armors in Ultra-Tech do not include helmets so they are unsealed with out one. However with an appropriate helmet (some are sealed & some are not) then the suit is sealed.

#2) As to the NBC suit skill: Anyone could put a hardsuit on & benefit from it's DR. However, if you want to seal the suit you need the skill. Also note that when wearing an NBC suit (including a hardsuit) the user's DX (DX based skills) are limited to their NBC suit level. (Default level is DX-5 for DX penalties but no default for sealing the suit.)

So, are you surmising that the Combat Hardsuit (TL9) MUST have additional environmental suit (NBC or otherwise) to use the "sealed aspect" of the full suit combined with the helmet?

Or are you suggesting that in order to use the "sealed" aspect of both the suit and the helmet combined, you must have the Environmental Suit skill?

It seems to me that, if I read more into it, WITHOUT an environmental suit, a user of a Combat Hardsuit combined with a Combat Infantry helmet can use the benefits of the "sealed" suit without an additional environmental suit. However, if they want the added benefits provided by any of the suits under the Civilian Survival Suits heading (UT pg177) they would have to wear it in adition to the full combat suit.

In addition, at Tech Level 9 and above, the DX penalties are eliminated, per the Gurps Basic set and the Ultra Tech books.

[Varyon]

Combat hardsuits function the way they are described as functioning; any features present in an environmental suit that aren't mentioned in the description of the combat hardsuit aren't present in the latter. A combat hardsuit grants the DR listed in the table, as well as PF 2 against radiation, biomedical sensors, a waste relief system, and a micro-climate control system. They are Sealed when combined with an appropriate helmet. You don't need to to toss on an additional suit; that would defeat the purpose of having sealed combat armor.

UT is unfortunately silent on if NBC Suit skill is needed. I'd be inclined to treat combat hardsuits the same way flexible sealed combat suits (UT178) are handled - NBC Suit skill doesn't limit DX or DX-based skills, and is used for quickly sealing the armor when donning it and for diagnostics.

Note: Battlesuit and NBC Suit have a very generous default to each other. -2. This means you can use "Improving Skills from Default" to have your secondary skill equal to your primary for cheap.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Varyon

UT is unfortunately silent on if NBC Suit skill is needed. I'd be inclined to treat combat hardsuits the same way flexible sealed combat suits (UT178) are handled - NBC Suit skill doesn't limit DX or DX-based skills, and is used for quickly sealing the armor when donning it and for diagnostics.

The way I GM it, if the suit is combined with a helmet & properly sealed it will give protection. However, if one doesn't have the NBC suit skill there is doubt if it was properly sealed. If one has the skill one can seal it.

If the PC doesn't have the NBC suit skill I usually make a roll vs their default (& don't tell them the results).

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Siliconhobbit

So, are you surmising that the Combat Hardsuit (TL9) MUST have additional environmental suit (NBC or otherwise) to use the "sealed aspect" of the full suit combined with the helmet?

No! The suit does not come with a helmet. Without one it can't be sealed. However, with a suit, helmet & the proper skill it can be sealed.

Or are you suggesting that in order to use the "sealed" aspect of both the suit and the helmet combined, you must have the Environmental Suit skill?

Yes, this. Just think of someone given a gas mask & filters. Sure they can put it on, but is it properly sealed? Was the filter installed & seated correctly?
I'd think they'd need a skill to be sure it was.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tinman

The way I GM it, if the suit is combined with a helmet & properly sealed it will give protection. However, if one doesn't have the NBC suit skill there is doubt if it was properly sealed. If one has the skill one can seal it.

If the PC doesn't have the NBC suit skill I usually make a roll vs their default (& don't tell them the results).

That's fair, although I'd be inclined to give a +4 to the roll, or let a character with Soldier/TL9+ roll that (with no bonus) instead. I'd imagine the hardsuits would be designed with some sort of idiot-proofing, hence the bonus (but still calls for a roll, as just like with bulletproof, idiot-proof should be treated as idiot-resistant). Of course, if your military's hardsuits were indeed built by the lowest bidder, needing NBC skill (and getting no bonus on use) may well be appropriate.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Varyon

or let a character with Soldier/TL9+ roll that (with no bonus) instead.

Yes. In some campaigns I'd let them use soldier.
A lot depends on the campaign & the templates.* If I'm trying to minimize the number of skills of if some some templates have NBC Suit & others don't.

The main point being it takes some skill to guarantee a proper seal.

* (As a rule, I use templates or Action-4 specialists book. Otherwise my players will min-max and every character will be almost identical or massively disadvantaged to those who did min-max.)

[AlexanderHowl]

It also depends on the military force. It would make sense to use Soldier if every active combatant used combat hardsuits. It would make sense to use NBC if only elite troops used combat hardsuits as Soldier would not include the use of combat hardsuits.