Should sling be its own talent? - Page 2

Jack O'All Trades · 10-15-2018, 08:42 PM

To be clear, slingshots are modern, and I think TFT is assuming a real sling (ie a "Sheperd's Sling"). Slingshots are toys, slings are lethal weapons. Conquistadors fighting against slingers found them to be almost as effective as their own firearms in terms of lethality, with reports of horses being killed in a single blow and swords cracking if half when hit by slings' bullets.

Tenex · 10-15-2018, 10:57 PM

I dunno about slingshots being modern. The only thing modern about them is elasticity for the bands. If someone conceived of it there's no reason an alchemist or chemist couldn't make a solution that imbued intestines with elasticity. Aside from that issue it's really a simple concept. Much simpler than a gun.

I do concur absolutely that the sling described in TFT is not a slingshot.

Shuriken and whips are toys too, but they get stated up with silly amounts of damage. A sha-ken is going to do as much damage as a 1 oz iron ball whipped out of a sling? Ha ha. Whipping was a punishment for centuries and it wasn't meant to kill. People took dozens of lashes while staked out helplessly to a post and didn't die, yet in TFT a whip is 1d-1.

So for me the problem is compression at the lower end of the weapons scale. There's simply no room to distinguish between a sling and a slingshot.

platimus · 10-16-2018, 08:26 AM

I also concur that TFT slings do not reference slingshots. However, slingshots could absolutely exist in Cidri...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber#History

Especially if they can make unrealistic weapons and armor made of a "silver alloy"

I would lump sling usage into Thrown Weapons just as a Spear Thrower is. I would lump slingshots into Bows and Missile Weapons.

Skarg · 10-16-2018, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenex

Shuriken and whips are toys too, but they get stated up with silly amounts of damage. A sha-ken is going to do as much damage as a 1 oz iron ball whipped out of a sling? Ha ha. Whipping was a punishment for centuries and it wasn't meant to kill. People took dozens of lashes while staked out helplessly to a post and didn't die, yet in TFT a whip is 1d-1.

So for me the problem is compression at the lower end of the weapons scale. There's simply no room to distinguish between a sling and a slingshot.

On this side-point, I suggest rolling damage for sha-ken and whips normally, but then applying a maximum resulting injury after all armor etc of 1 point per attack.

ecz · 10-16-2018, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn

I've always been bothered by the inclusion of slings in the bow talent since they use completely different mechanics.

I can use this a house rule but what about Sling as an IQ 7 1 pt talent which uses missile range DX modifications and the damage, instead of a flat 1-2, is ST dependent (uses the regular ST damage table - with a +1 for fighters).

User gets a DX bonus if Thrown Weapons is known. NO bonus for knowing Missile Weapons.

coming back to the OP I believe that Sling should have a separate talent, IQ 7, 1 Point, and also the ST related damage is fair.

What I think is that Missile Weapon talent is plausible as DX bonus more than the Thrown Weapons one.
I would put a damage cap to 1 die no matter the ST of the user.

Skarg · 10-16-2018, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecz

coming back to the OP I believe that Sling should have a separate talent, IQ 7, 1 Point, and also the ST related damage is fair.

What I think is that Missile Weapon talent is plausible as DX bonus more than the Thrown Weapons one.
I would put a damage cap to 1 die no matter the ST of the user.

I like all these ideas. Sounds good to me.

I'm not entirely sure about Thrown Weapons versus Missile Weapons... I should try actually learning to use a sling. I get the point that it is a bit like throwing a rock... but I am not sure about the game effects. I know slings were said to be as accurate and long-ranged (and powerful) as a bow, but lacking the experience of having tried to use one, my mental image has swing/release slings being a bit hard to aim precisely... though I get that's likely because I have no experience doing it.

(I also think that since we now have a Quick Draw talent, that I'd be greatly tempted to remove that benefit from the Thrown Weapons talent, and/or to require a roll rather than have it automatically always take no time to ready a thrown weapon to throw.)

JohnPaulB · 10-18-2018, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenex

I dunno about slingshots being modern. The only thing modern about them is elasticity for the bands. If someone conceived of it there's no reason an alchemist or chemist couldn't make a solution that imbued intestines with elasticity. Aside from that issue it's really a simple concept. Much simpler than a gun.

And as Cidri has Gates and some tech level 7-10 lying around, it is plausible that they Wizard's guild or the Mechanician's guild would work on something like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenex

Shuriken and whips are toys too, but they get stated up with silly amounts of damage. A sha-ken is going to do as much damage as a 1 oz iron ball whipped out of a sling? Ha ha. Whipping was a punishment for centuries and it wasn't meant to kill. People took dozens of lashes while staked out helplessly to a post and didn't die, yet in TFT a whip is 1d-1.

Perhaps Whips are that powerful because they have razor blades at the end. Something like Cat-O-Nine Tails.

platimus · 10-18-2018, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

And as Cidri has Gates and some tech level 7-10 lying around, it is plausible that they Wizard's guild or the Mechanician's guild would work on something like that.
...
Perhaps Whips are that powerful because they have razor blades at the end. Something like Cat-O-Nine Tails.

Those are things I thought of too. I would assume the whips have some kind of barbs at the end unless specified otherwise. Even without any kind of barbed tip, I would still allow the whip to do 1d-1 _fatigue_ to the victim. As stated earlier, people were whipped throughout history as punishment. Even when they didn't die from a _severe_ whipping, they often had to be carried away because they were unable to carry themselves.

Shadekeep · 10-21-2018, 09:52 AM

Chiming in late as just returning from vacation, but yes, I think the traditional sling should be an Unusual Weapon talent, alongside Boomerangs and the like. They require very specific skills to master, and can be appalling deadly in the right hands. I remember recently seeing footage of aboriginal hunters going after flamigoes with slings, and killing one from a very far distance.

Regarding weak weapons like sha-ken, I find they are more suited for poison delivery than doing lethal damage on their own. Sort of like a more advanced version of the blowgun.

larsdangly · 10-21-2018, 10:10 AM

For sure the damage for a sling should be ST-appropriate, irrespective of what you make of its realism. Melee only works as a game when there are no 'get out of jail free' cards that let you design characters with significant intrinsic advantages. No one wants sling to be the next boomarang-hobbit. I think the right house rule is its a 1 point Unusual Weapon talent, and it covers 2-3 different sorts of slings that differ appropriately in their ST requirement and damage (e.g., a hunting sling intended for bringing down birds might be the one in the book; a 'war sling' that throws lead balls might be ST 9 and do 1d; a 'staff sling' might be ST 11 and do 1d+2). The existence of the three grades of sling would justify the talent point expenditure and up the overall presence of the weapon in the game.

10-15-2018, 08:42 PM	#11
Jack O'All Trades Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Should sling be its own talent? To be clear, slingshots are modern, and I think TFT is assuming a real sling (ie a "Sheperd's Sling"). Slingshots are toys, slings are lethal weapons. Conquistadors fighting against slingers found them to be almost as effective as their own firearms in terms of lethality, with reports of horses being killed in a single blow and swords cracking if half when hit by slings' bullets.

10-15-2018, 10:57 PM	#12
Tenex Join Date: Aug 2018	Re: Should sling be its own talent? I dunno about slingshots being modern. The only thing modern about them is elasticity for the bands. If someone conceived of it there's no reason an alchemist or chemist couldn't make a solution that imbued intestines with elasticity. Aside from that issue it's really a simple concept. Much simpler than a gun. I do concur absolutely that the sling described in TFT is not a slingshot. Shuriken and whips are toys too, but they get stated up with silly amounts of damage. A sha-ken is going to do as much damage as a 1 oz iron ball whipped out of a sling? Ha ha. Whipping was a punishment for centuries and it wasn't meant to kill. People took dozens of lashes while staked out helplessly to a post and didn't die, yet in TFT a whip is 1d-1. So for me the problem is compression at the lower end of the weapons scale. There's simply no room to distinguish between a sling and a slingshot.

10-16-2018, 08:26 AM	#13
platimus Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: behind you	Re: Should sling be its own talent? I also concur that TFT slings do not reference slingshots. However, slingshots could absolutely exist in Cidri... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber#History Especially if they can make unrealistic weapons and armor made of a "silver alloy" I would lump sling usage into Thrown Weapons just as a Spear Thrower is. I would lump slingshots into Bows and Missile Weapons.

10-21-2018, 09:52 AM	#19
Shadekeep Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Aerlith	Re: Should sling be its own talent? Chiming in late as just returning from vacation, but yes, I think the traditional sling should be an Unusual Weapon talent, alongside Boomerangs and the like. They require very specific skills to master, and can be appalling deadly in the right hands. I remember recently seeing footage of aboriginal hunters going after flamigoes with slings, and killing one from a very far distance. Regarding weak weapons like sha-ken, I find they are more suited for poison delivery than doing lethal damage on their own. Sort of like a more advanced version of the blowgun.

10-21-2018, 10:10 AM	#20
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Should sling be its own talent? For sure the damage for a sling should be ST-appropriate, irrespective of what you make of its realism. Melee only works as a game when there are no 'get out of jail free' cards that let you design characters with significant intrinsic advantages. No one wants sling to be the next boomarang-hobbit. I think the right house rule is its a 1 point Unusual Weapon talent, and it covers 2-3 different sorts of slings that differ appropriately in their ST requirement and damage (e.g., a hunting sling intended for bringing down birds might be the one in the book; a 'war sling' that throws lead balls might be ST 9 and do 1d; a 'staff sling' might be ST 11 and do 1d+2). The existence of the three grades of sling would justify the talent point expenditure and up the overall presence of the weapon in the game.