Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Until we have some serious transhumanist body modifications available to the general public, swordsmen, martial-artists, and baseball batters will have to stick to the kind of morphological refinement available to us. To whit - exercise, with or without hormones etc., and regardless of if those chemical aids are from natural mutations or medical help.

Exercise at a specialized task from an early age deforms the skeleton as well as builds muscle-mass. The skeleton of Sir John de Strickley[1] was unearthed at Stirling castle, and is a fantastic case study of what knightly training actually did to your body.
His right shoulder-blade is warped and rippled to an extent you just don't see in modern people, and his arm bones are ridged and flanged; he worked so hard with his right arm that his body deformed the bone to produce more muscle attachment points. His left side is less drastic, but still well developed - his shield arm took impact in different ways from his sword and lance arm.
This man was visibly deformed to become a specialist at the job of wielding weapons in combat to murder other people; he was lop-sided.
He also had classical knightly injuries, like a healed blade wound to the forehead that scarred the bone but didn't penetrate the braincase, bashed front teeth (typical of both a punch to the face, and a shield to the face), lower back injury (from bouncing around in the saddle for hours and hours) and an infected crushed ankle (typical from having a horse roll on you).

Sir John de Strickley, and other knights like him, clearly felt strength was important.

[1] Probably John de Strickley - they don't have an inscription over his burial or clearly identifying artifacts; he was definitely a knight from the south of England. Incidentally, he probably died of an arrow wound or the subsequent infection - they found the barbed head of the war arrow still lodged in his rib bones.

Oh I agree activity can have some quite astounding effects on the body. There are the oft quoted examples of english archers and viking rowers as well.

It's how we then jump to expressing that in GURPS terms that can be an issue.

As I said earlier I tend to go with bonuses narrow in scope to go with the narrow focus, rather then board bonuses that have a much wider application.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Exercise at a specialized task from an early age deforms the skeleton as well as builds muscle-mass. The skeleton of Sir John de Strickley[1] was unearthed at Stirling castle, and is a fantastic case study of what knightly training actually did to your body.
His right shoulder-blade is warped and rippled to an extent you just don't see in modern people, and his arm bones are ridged and flanged; he worked so hard with his right arm that his body deformed the bone to produce more muscle attachment points. His left side is less drastic, but still well developed - his shield arm took impact in different ways from his sword and lance arm.
This man was visibly deformed to become a specialist at the job of wielding weapons in combat to murder other people; he was lop-sided.

Fascinating. I seem to reply (from GURPS Camelot, IIRC) that Sir Lancelot is described as being noticeably asymmetrical in a similar way in at least one of the medieval romances (Mallory, maybe?)

Seems to me to make the case for both Trained Strength for Striking Weapons, and perhaps Special Exercises (Arm Strength) in the Knightly Mounted Combat style.

Nevertheless, I suspect that he developed most of that arm strength from carrying a lance and/or swinging a mace or warhammer (or other armor-piercing impact weapon) rather than through swordplay alone.

Although, as light as swords are, and as much as I believe that strength is of modest importance only in a sword-fight, it gets tiring AF to hold a sword in many of the guard positions. When I practice Sword and Buckler or Rapier my wrist and forearm muscles get very tired. (Not so much with a Longsword, though, that second hand makes a HUGE difference.)

[Lord Azagthoth]

You could add modifiers to One Arm Striking ST such a Single skill (as with Extra Attack) for -20%.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Gollum

A karateka has to reach DX+0 (or a weapon master has to reach DX+1) to get +1 to damage, which requires quite a lot of training / character points (depending on the difficulty of the skill). But he only needs 4 points more to get +2 to damage. And after that, nothing else. Even if he reaches DX+10. The distribution of theses bonuses sounds weird to me. Something like DX+0 for +1 to damage and DX+4 for +2 to damage would have been more realistic in my humble opinion.

For Karate and Throwing Art, DX+0 costs [4] - they're Hard skills. For Brawling, DX+2 costs [4] - it's an Easy skill. For Boxing, Sumo Wrestling, Wrestling, and most weapon skills, DX+1 costs [4] - they're Average skills. Aside from Brawling, all of these (assuming WM) get a further bonus at the next skill level, which also costs [4] (total [8]), but this trend doesn't continue, as otherwise you'd get ridiculous damage with high skill. The only real inconsistency is that, with Weapon Master, there are a few skills (Knife, Shield, Crossbow, Thrown Weapon*) where the character can get the bonuses at [2] and [4], and there are a few skills (Flail, Kusari, 2H Flail, Blowpipe, Sling) where the character doesn't get the bonuses until [8] and [12]. This can be readily corrected by having those few Easy skills get the bonuses at DX+2 and DX+3, and having those few Hard skills get them at DX+0 and DX+1.

*I could see arguments against Thrown Weapon getting the Weapon Master damage bonus, as doing so puts it on a comparable level to Throwing Art.

[Bruno]

For the curious about the physique, there's a documentary on the Stirling body still available on YouTube - that link points to near the end where a forensic reconstruction of his face and body are shown.

Obviously, like any forensic reconstruction, these aren't exactly what he looked like - but it certainly gives you an idea.

That's a specialized physique, but it's also a generally strong one. You need the general strength in order to support the specialized anatomy - having an emaciated body with one giant arm doesn't get you anywhere.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Bruno

For the curious about the physique, there's a documentary on the Stirling body still available on YouTube - that link points to near the end where a forensic reconstruction of his face and body are shown.

Obviously, like any forensic reconstruction, these aren't exactly what he looked like - but it certainly gives you an idea.

That's a specialized physique, but it's also a generally strong one. You need the general strength in order to support the specialized anatomy - having an emaciated body with one giant arm doesn't get you anywhere.

Thanks again! That is very interesting. I'm surprised that their model didn't have more chest development. Overhead cutting activates the pecks quite a bit, in my experience. At least, a lot more than punching or thrusting does.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Varyon

For Karate and Throwing Art, DX+0 costs [4] - they're Hard skills. For Brawling, DX+2 costs [4] - it's an Easy skill. For Boxing, Sumo Wrestling, Wrestling, and most weapon skills, DX+1 costs [4] - they're Average skills. Aside from Brawling, all of these (assuming WM) get a further bonus at the next skill level, which also costs [4] (total [8]), but this trend doesn't continue, as otherwise you'd get ridiculous damage with high skill. The only real inconsistency is that, with Weapon Master, there are a few skills (Knife, Shield, Crossbow, Thrown Weapon*) where the character can get the bonuses at [2] and [4], and there are a few skills (Flail, Kusari, 2H Flail, Blowpipe, Sling) where the character doesn't get the bonuses until [8] and [12]. This can be readily corrected by having those few Easy skills get the bonuses at DX+2 and DX+3, and having those few Hard skills get them at DX+0 and DX+1.

*I could see arguments against Thrown Weapon getting the Weapon Master damage bonus, as doing so puts it on a comparable level to Throwing Art.

Yes.

On the other hand, if a skill is easier to learn, it seems reasonable that being more effective with the weapon (doing more damage) is easier. So, basing it on the relative level (DX+X) rather than on the point cost sounds a better idea, in my humble opinion.

The problem is that it is neither the first nor the really the second solution. And that the rule give the feeling that you become very effective at the beginning of your training and that you don't improve anymore after that. Which is absolutely wrong, concerning karate. Learning kime requires many years of training. Beginners only use their basic strength.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Bruno

For the curious about the physique, there's a documentary on the Stirling body still available on YouTube - that link points to near the end where a forensic reconstruction of his face and body are shown.

Obviously, like any forensic reconstruction, these aren't exactly what he looked like - but it certainly gives you an idea.

That's a specialized physique, but it's also a generally strong one. You need the general strength in order to support the specialized anatomy - having an emaciated body with one giant arm doesn't get you anywhere.

How lonely was the artist? Because I see another specialization that probably had little to do with his occupation.

[Bilanthri]

Originally Posted by Gerrard of Titan Server

Consider an out-of-shape person, and take an Olympic athlete strength trainer of some sort, and compare how fast that they can swing a bat. Would the difference really be that large?

...

The kinetic energy difference would be larger because kinetic energy is the square of speed, but IIRC GURPS damage is generally treated as the sqrt of kinetic energy, so we're back to about 60 vs 80.

While the kinetic energy imparted in a swung weapon is an important factor when calculating shearing forces and whatnot, it seems that a better comparison comes from looking at Newton's Second Law:

F=ma

Since trying to land a crushing blow is less important than landing a well-placed blow, a stronger wielder may not swing their weapon that much faster than a weaker person. However, they would have an advantage in being able to bring their weapon up to speed quicker, as well as being able to continue to accelerate into the blow.

Why, may you ask, would one continue accelerating into their strike? For the same reason that empty-hand techniques teach practitioners to strike "through" their target. You don't want to level off or slow down before the impact...that's called pulling your punch. It can mean the difference between a bloodied, angry opponent and one who's been floored.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Bilanthri

Why, may you ask, would one continue accelerating into their strike? For the same reason that empty-hand techniques teach practitioners to strike "through" their target.

That reason being a psychological trick -- it's not that accelerating actually meaningfully affects damage, it's that not decelerating does, and human instinct causes you to decelerate shortly before reaching the point you're aiming at.