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Old 01-12-2018, 03:23 AM   #11
Ultraviolet
 
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I think DouglasCole is referring to you can make an grapple attack to improve you 0CP grapple (which you have because you have been grappled) and any CP you gain can than be used after in the normal way. Of course your efforts at grappling back is subject to any control penalties you are currently suffering from
But in the example:
A grapples B, but rolls 0 CP. B grapples back, at no penalty, and rolls non-zero CP. A is now hampered on his next turn.

How is that different from:
A does nothing (or attempts a grapple, but misses). B grapples A, and zolls non-zero CP.A is now hampered on his next turn.

Is there any advantage for B in the first example?
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:14 AM   #12
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
But in the example:
A grapples B, but rolls 0 CP. B grapples back, at no penalty, and rolls non-zero CP. A is now hampered on his next turn.

How is that different from:
A does nothing (or attempts a grapple, but misses). B grapples A, and zolls non-zero CP.A is now hampered on his next turn.


Is there any advantage for B in the first example?
A has not only failed to do anything worthwhile on their turn (I.e wasted their turn) they have also functionally given B a free grapple attack out of their sequence, albeit a 0CP but one which can then be built on in their turn!

Now B can attack to improve their grapple and doesn't worry about hit locations for doing so against the locations A grappled B with (so is a good set up for joint locks* on hands & arms)

But if they want they can go straight to grappling action that requires a grapple to be established, as a grapple has been established

Although since they they won't have any CP to leverage or set limits with when doing so they're limited in their choices here but they can change position for instance (although again without 0CP it's harder to do and their opponent can then break free easier on their turn, and it may take a GM's ruling to decide what this ends up looking like)


*A has basically given B their wrist/elbow for free, although B will need to improve their grip on it in order to leverage that into an effect!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 01-12-2018 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:44 AM   #13
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Wait what? Citation please?
Aw poop. I think that was maybe in an original draft.

Nope: it's learning that I put into Dungeon Grappling, my grappling book for That Other Game.

"COUNTER-GRAPPLING. You can always attempt to grab a foe back. Attack normally, and if you hit roll for CP—though both the hit roll and the damage roll may be penalized due to the grapple that’s on you! You may apply that damage either to put CP on your opponent, or to reduce the CP your opponent has on you. You may freely allocate control between increasing the CP on the foe and reducing CP applied by foes on the grappler making the attack roll."

Dungeon Grappling, p. 24



Right now in the book, you have to choose, and if you attack to break free and then overachieve control, you can claim a grapple equal to half the value of your excess CP.

I can't even look at that sentence anymore - it's a case of needless complication.

House Rule Proposed by Author: Attack, if successful roll CP. Allocate as you like between "more grabbing" and "less grabbing for the other guy." Anything more complicated is harder to remember than it needs to be, and is double taxation. You've already overcome the foe's grapple and associated DX penalties.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:45 AM   #14
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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So I started reading the blog - very useful. I especially like the example of the Wrestler vs the Judoka.

Thanks
Yah, no problem. I was on a roll there for a while.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:47 AM   #15
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I think DouglasCole is referring to you can make an grapple attack to improve your 0CP grapple (which you have because you have been grappled) and any CP you gain can than be used after in the normal way. Of course your efforts at grappling back is subject to any control penalties you are currently suffering from
No, just a mistake on my part. In the rules you have to choose between an attack to increase control and an attack to break free, because if you attack to break free, once you've done so, you can apply CP to your foe at a ratio of 2 earned to 1 applied.

As noted in my earlier post: that's a needless complication...but it IS what's written in the book.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Aw poop. I think that was maybe in an original draft. Right now in the book, you have to choose, and if you attack to break free and then overachieve control, you can claim a grapple equal to half the value of your excess CP.

I can't even look at that sentence anymore - it's a case of needless complication.

House Rule Proposed by Author: Attack, if successful roll CP. Allocate as you like between "more grabbing" and "less grabbing for the other guy." Anything more complicated is harder to remember than it needs to be, and is double taxation. You've already overcome the foe's grapple and associated DX penalties.
I guess that if you keep any CP on your target you can't then reduce their CP on you to less than zero (i.e the grapple would have to be maintained)?
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:56 AM   #17
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
No, just a mistake on my part. In the rules you have to choose between an attack to increase control and an attack to break free, because if you attack to break free, once you've done so, you can apply CP to your foe at a ratio of 2 earned to 1 applied.

As noted in my earlier post: that's a needless complication...but it IS what's written in the book.
Cool,

Can I just check am I right about my assessment of Mutual grappling and 0 cps?
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:57 AM   #18
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I guess that if you keep any CP on your target you can't then reduce their CP on you to less than zero (i.e the grapple would have to be maintained)?
yeah. You can reduce their control without breaking all the way out. You can do this while slightly increasing your own control as well.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
No, just a mistake on my part. In the rules you have to choose between an attack to increase control and an attack to break free, because if you attack to break free, once you've done so, you can apply CP to your foe at a ratio of 2 earned to 1 applied.

As noted in my earlier post: that's a needless complication...but it IS what's written in the book.
Since technical grappling is a pdf resource that is easily updated, any chance we can get that as an official errata? I try not to have to remember too many house rules if possible...
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:03 AM   #20
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Cool,

Can I just check am I right about my assessment of Mutual grappling and 0 cps?
If I grab you, and score (say) 4 CP, you're at -2 to DX, -1 to parries, and no penalty to dodge.

Now it's your turn, and your options are to either grapple a new hit location (at the usual "half" penalties), or add control to the thing grabbing you - you don't suffer location penalties to increase control on something you've already grabbed (see the note on p. 21 under Attack maneuver for that tidbit).
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