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Old 07-24-2016, 02:19 PM   #31
EskrimadorNC
 
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
As you say, using Technical Grappling, the Trained ST bonus from Wrestling is so much higher than Judo (at normal human ST and skill levels), that it's necessary to have Wrestling to perform most of the more brutal grappling and locking moves effectively.
I'm not so sure "so much higher" is accurate. Assuming Judo and Wrestling at the same level, the Trained ST bonus is only 2 points different, which is essentially on 1 CP better when executing techniques. Now, to be fair, Judo is more expensive than Wrestling and so Judo 20 costs the same points as Wrestling 21 or Wrestling 20 with 4 points of improved techniques. If the numbers fall JUST right, the difference MIGHT be bigger than I suggested originally:

FREX:

ST13, DX12, Judo 18 (DX+6) comes out with a Trained ST of 14 for 1d CP.

For the same points you can do...

ST13, DX12, Wrestling 19 (DX+7) and get a Trained ST of 17 for 1d+2 CP.

And even with just the right breakpoints, you still only net a +1 to hit and +2 CP.

I don't know...2 CP can be substantial, but I'm not sure it is something that is necessary to be as effective at Grappling/Locking as Bourne is.

One thing that might make Wrestling desirable is for Kiss the Wall. MA says you roll vs. Sumo Wrestling/Wrestling/Brawling/DX to do this. I'm pretty sure Bourne does this a few times throughout his films, and I'd expect he would be using trained Wrestling instead of rolling vs. DX.

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That being said, it's also a factor of the specific styles used in the context of the fight choreography in the movies. It's noted in GURPS Martial Arts that Escrima (referring to Kali/Arnis as well) schools that teaching a lot of grappling add Wrestling to the primary skills.
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Having said that, you are correcting, Wrestling is mentioned in MA in reference to schools that teach a lot of grappling. Most of what we do at my school is more like GURPS Judo than GURPS Wrestling, including Judo throws and lots of Small-Circle JuJitsu (focus on standing grappling and lots of small-joint locks).
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Old 07-24-2016, 02:32 PM   #32
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

EskrimadorNC, most Hollywood action heroes have ST 15+ despite being fairly average height and weight (if very fit). They can put down normal man with one deft move, break limbs with swift kicks or pick up an adult and run with him (or throw). All that requires high ST in GURPS.

Trained ST for Wrestling at DX+7 is (0.4*15=6). For Judo DX+7, it's (0.2*15=3). That gives you Trained ST 21 with Wrestling, Trained ST 18 with Judo.

Something around the lines of Trained ST 21 is what you need for the kind of Joint Locks and Throws from Locks that Bourne does all the time. You don't get enough CPs with one grapple to spend on breaking arms with one deft move without obscene Trained ST. He'd need Judo at DX+13 to match that Trained ST with Judo.
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:21 PM   #33
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Trained ST for Wrestling at DX+7 is (0.4*15=6). For Judo DX+7, it's (0.2*15=3). That gives you Trained ST 21 with Wrestling, Trained ST 18 with Judo.
Multipliers are optional, through appropriate to the setting switch discussed. It would be good to state this as the assumtion, though.

As presented, the difference is +2 for Judo at DX+7, +4 for Wrestling at DX+7, for Trained ST 17 and 19, respectively. That's one point of thrust damage, which is one control point on the average.

Icelander is referring to a Harsh Realism box for scaling Trained ST with a multiplier rather than the flat adds.

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Something around the lines of Trained ST 21 is what you need for the kind of Joint Locks and Throws from Locks that Bourne does all the time. You don't get enough CPs with one grapple to spend on breaking arms with one deft move without obscene Trained ST. He'd need Judo at DX+13 to match that Trained ST with Judo.
There's a cinematic switch on p. 5 that allows you to double CP for these genres, and both Bourne (and the Avengers - Natasha in particular) are appropriate movies for this switch.

That basically means that instead of Trained ST 17 or 19 doing 1d+2 and 2d-1 for 3-8 CP and 1-11 CP respectively, the switch goes upside they head for 6-16 and 2-22 CP, which will do pretty devastating things with a successful grapple.

Otherwise you do get silliness like all cinematic heroes being pro athlete levels of strong, rather than sport-specific strong, or just "I'm working with a stuntman" awesome.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:00 PM   #34
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
IIRC there are still weapons and Techniques that only work with Brawling, but not too many.
Yes, but those techniques also work with Wrestling.

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Plus the fact that Brawling and Brawling Parry don't suffer Encumbrance penalties.
True, I always overlook that...
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:19 PM   #35
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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True, I always overlook that...
The lack of encumbrance penalties is also what makes Boxing more interesting than it would otherwise be.
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:50 AM   #36
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Yes, but those techniques also work with Wrestling.
Well, whether that is a solution depends on whether one has Wrestling or not. Brawling is kinda nice for covering bits and pieces of both Karate and Wrestling.
Plus, this is TL8, so being able to wield a Stun Gun is nice, and Stun Guns work with neither Wrestling nor Karate (as do blackjacks/saps, but that's not as impressive).
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Old 07-25-2016, 05:41 AM   #37
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Plus, this is TL8, so being able to wield a Stun Gun is nice, and Stun Guns work with neither Wrestling nor Karate (as do blackjacks/saps, but that's not as impressive).
Hmmm. So Bourne has either Wrestling or Brawling, or a small list of Perks to allow techniques and a few weapons Karate and Judo don't normally allow (which is how I'd build him).
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:21 AM   #38
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

I've done some more watching of the fight scenes in Identity, Supremacy, and Ultimatum, the best I can determine is that we see him do some of what can be considered Kiss The Wall in Supremacy and Ultimatum, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be rolling at DX, so that implies either Brawling or more likely Wrestling.

So here is what we agree on so far:

Skills:
-Karate
-Judo
-Wrestling (or relevant Skill Adaptation Perk)
-Smallsword
-Knife
-Kusari or Garrote (or both)

Advantages:
-Combat Reflexes
-Extra Attack (likely w/multi strike)
-High Pain Threshold
-probably Fit, maybe Very Fit

Perks:
-Improvised Weapons (a bunch)
-Weapon Adaptation (Shortsword to Smallsword)

Improved Techniques:
Lots of guesswork as you can't tell if Bourne just has VERY high skill and is defaulting or if he has improved any of these techniques
-Arm/Hand Lock (Judo)
-Disarming (Judo)
-Ground Fighting (Judo)
-Kicking (Karate)
-Sweep (Karate or Judo)


Keep in mind this is a list is based off of what we see in the movies. If you are building a truly effective fighter, you will probably want to throw in some other combat Advantages/Skills/Perks/Imp Techniques.
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Old 07-28-2016, 10:47 AM   #39
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
Improved Techniques:
Lots of guesswork as you can't tell if Bourne just has VERY high skill and is defaulting or if he has improved any of these techniques
-Arm/Hand Lock (Judo)
-Disarming (Judo)
-Ground Fighting (Judo)
-Kicking (Karate)
-Sweep (Karate or Judo)
He certainly uses them a lot. That could be signature moves, or it could be a bought-up technique. The best way to work it out, as well as the skill levels, is to simply build a hypothetical character, and then judge what is most efficient. For example, if you specialize in getting your opponent on the ground, or going on the ground yourself, and then defeating your opponent while on the ground, it might make sense to buy up the technique a lot. If your strategy generally focuses on one of these techniques, or a lot of moves you make depends on it, it makes sense to buy it up. Often, though, it does not. Note for example that you have four techniques that might be judo-based, which means he almost certainly wouldn't buy them all up, as it wouldn't be efficient. That's the point here, of course: How can I get this effect best in the most efficient manner possible.

Which is one reason why it's useful to pick a baseline ("Jason Bourne as a 350 point Action character") rather than just trying to derive his point value from what you see him do in the movies.
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Old 07-28-2016, 11:31 AM   #40
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
EskrimadorNC, most Hollywood action heroes have ST 15+ despite being fairly average height and weight (if very fit). They can put down normal man with one deft move, break limbs with swift kicks or pick up an adult and run with him (or throw). All that requires high ST in GURPS.
Or maybe Striking ST instead of straight ST?
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