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Old 07-22-2016, 09:07 PM   #21
EskrimadorNC
 
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
I'm... not convinced. In fact, I've not really been convinced that Extra Attack is ever worthwhile or the sort of thing we often see in film.
Most others have covered this better than I could, but I have one more reason why Extra Attack might be a better option. Take a look at the Templates in in the Action series of books, or in DF and ATE. If your GM is requiring templates and many GMs do, then you may not even have the option to buy 6 more levels of a skill. Most of the combat focused templates in ATE provide enough Advantage points to purchase Extra Attack, and it sits as a very good option under the FAST lens. I've scrutinized those templates pretty hard, and unless you have a super-flexible GM, you flat won't be able to give your character a +6 to skill, no matter how much more point efficient that is over Extra Attack.

And TBaM, though really better overall than EA, is not likely something a GM would allow if he/she is running a Modern Action/Spy type GURPS game, EVEN if the starting point values are on the high side.
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Old 07-22-2016, 09:17 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
According to IMDB, Matt Damon's fight instructor for the movie was an expert in Jeet Kune Do, which per Martial Arts means Karate and Judo. The lack of wrestling also fits with the fact that Jason doesn't seem to rely on brute strength much, nor does he spend a lot of time on ground work.
Imada has trained extensively with Dan Inosanto, but not just in Inosanto-Blend JKD, but in Kali (flavor of Escrima), and he specifically calls that out in a video made during the filming of The Bourne Ultimatum. Skip ahead to 0:32 for the relevant bit from Imada and ignore Joey Ansah's bullshido crap.

Like Doug has said elsewhere (on his blog maybe?), there is only so many ways to break the human body, so all combat-effective martial arts start to very similar. Though I will admit some bias towards the FMA, and Kali/Escrima/Arnis in particular, if you haven't already figured that out.
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Old 07-22-2016, 09:25 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Consider that Jason Bourne constantly uses Judo, Karate and Wrestling skills...
You aren't the first person that has said that. I've watched the fight scenes in all three Bourne movies (Renner's is NOT a real Bourne movie) several times, and while I can pick out Karate and Judo quite easily, I'm not sure how you can identify Wrestling. Is that an assumption based on Wrestling giving a better training bonus than Judo and how effective Bourne's grapples seem to be, or are there some specific moves or scenes where you watched and said "Yup...that right there is 100% Wrestling and not Judo"?

I'm not sure if that comes across well, this being a written medium and all, but I am not intending to be flippant or condescending. I'm honestly curious.
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:11 AM   #24
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
I'll be honest: This is very tricky, almost impossible to do. The best possible approach would be to research the films and do play-by-play of what's going on. I've been doing that a lot with martial arts lately (I started to break down the opening fight of Into the Badlands in GURPS Martial Arts), and I started because Hans-Christian Vortisch's work on translating shooting scenes into Tactical Shooting inspired me, but I noticed something: He never states what the skills involved are. After working through the scenes myself, I could see why.
Assigning specific skill levels to observed performance is extremely difficult. You'll always end up with a range rather than a specific number.

However, my goal is to show how a specific manoeuvre looks like, what its penalties are, and how you could buy them off. In other words, in my writeups I'm less interested in the characters than what they do.

If you have a bunch of penalties and know that a character beat them, you know that he must have at least a skill high enough to overcome the penalties. Which still only gives you a range . . .

Cheers

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Last edited by HANS; 08-02-2016 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 07-23-2016, 11:14 AM   #25
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
You aren't the first person that has said that. I've watched the fight scenes in all three Bourne movies (Renner's is NOT a real Bourne movie) several times, and while I can pick out Karate and Judo quite easily, I'm not sure how you can identify Wrestling.
I'd have to rewatch, but there are Techniques that have no default to Judo, but do to Wrestling.

Quick List: Drop Kick, Elbow Drop, Knee-Drop, Scissors Hold, and Wrench Spine. Also Neck Snap and Wrench (Limb) do not gain benefit from Judo (but default to ST not Wrestling).
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Old 07-24-2016, 09:49 AM   #26
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I'd have to rewatch, but there are Techniques that have no default to Judo, but do to Wrestling.

Quick List: Drop Kick, Elbow Drop, Knee-Drop, Scissors Hold, and Wrench Spine. Also Neck Snap and Wrench (Limb) do not gain benefit from Judo (but default to ST not Wrestling).
Good point. I'll have to re-watch the fight scenes and see if I can spot any of those. I don't remember see them off the top of my head, but that doesn't mean they don't show up for sure on the screen.
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Old 07-24-2016, 11:51 AM   #27
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

Yes. Everything is so fast during Jason Bourne's combats that it is hard to notice which precise technique is used at every moment. I'll have to re-watch them too - like you, I was almost sure that GURPS-judo tehcniques were sufficient to handle things.
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Old 07-24-2016, 11:53 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
Good point. I'll have to re-watch the fight scenes and see if I can spot any of those. I don't remember see them off the top of my head, but that doesn't mean they don't show up for sure on the screen.
Yea, it's one of things I noted awhile back, once you have Karate there is no reason to have Brawling... but the same cannot be said for Judo, Wrestling, and Sumo Wrestling, as each has techniques or combat usage not covered by the others.
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Old 07-24-2016, 12:13 PM   #29
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Yea, it's one of things I noted awhile back, once you have Karate there is no reason to have Brawling... but the same cannot be said for Judo, Wrestling, and Sumo Wrestling, as each has techniques or combat usage not covered by the others.
IIRC there are still weapons and Techniques that only work with Brawling, but not too many. Plus the fact that Brawling and Brawling Parry don't suffer Encumbrance penalties.
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Old 07-24-2016, 12:16 PM   #30
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Default Re: Jason Bourne combat skills

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Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
You aren't the first person that has said that. I've watched the fight scenes in all three Bourne movies (Renner's is NOT a real Bourne movie) several times, and while I can pick out Karate and Judo quite easily, I'm not sure how you can identify Wrestling. Is that an assumption based on Wrestling giving a better training bonus than Judo and how effective Bourne's grapples seem to be, or are there some specific moves or scenes where you watched and said "Yup...that right there is 100% Wrestling and not Judo"?

I'm not sure if that comes across well, this being a written medium and all, but I am not intending to be flippant or condescending. I'm honestly curious.
As you say, using Technical Grappling, the Trained ST bonus from Wrestling is so much higher than Judo (at normal human ST and skill levels), that it's necessary to have Wrestling to perform most of the more brutal grappling and locking moves effectively.

That being said, it's also a factor of the specific styles used in the context of the fight choreography in the movies. It's noted in GURPS Martial Arts that Escrima (referring to Kali/Arnis as well) schools that teaching a lot of grappling add Wrestling to the primary skills.
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