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Old 12-11-2014, 09:59 AM   #31
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
I'm not 100% sure how that is going to work.

Are you trying to Arm Lock his attacking arm? If so, he should still get the chance to Parry your Arm Lock with his Knife.

Are you trying to Arm Lock his non-attacking arm? I'm not sure you can do that.



It doesn't specifically say that you MUST capture the attacking arm, but I'm sure that was Peter's intent.

If you've locked up the other arm, he can still attack you with the knife. I'm going to have to do some refresher reading before I can say definitively if it would be a wild swing or not.

But like Tomsdad said, you really want to get control of the knife hand/arm.
Good point. I hadn't thought of the possibility that you can't legally grab an arm from the opposing side (makes sense).
I would consider attacking from the non-weapon side anyway and just going for strikes. After all, if you are significantly more skilled than the opponent (which I presume is part of the premise here), you should be making your defenses, so the only real issue with the knife is that it can damage you on a successful parry. If you just keep striking from the non-weapon side, he will never be able to do that to you, and meanwhile you should be able to parry his attacks with your superior skill (and judicious use of retreats).
So maybe instead of Judo we should be using Karate here for maximum damage potential, with the plan being to simply beat the pulp out of the knife-wielder...
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Old 12-11-2014, 10:02 AM   #32
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
I'm not 100% sure how that is going to work.

Are you trying to Arm Lock his attacking arm? If so, he should still get the chance to Parry your Arm Lock with his Knife.

Are you trying to Arm Lock his non-attacking arm? I'm not sure you can do that.

It doesn't specifically say that you MUST capture the attacking arm, but I'm sure that was Peter's intent.
I think I read somewhere recently that you can lock any arm, not necessarily the one that was attacking you, but don't take my word for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
If you've locked up the other arm, he can still attack you with the knife. I'm going to have to do some refresher reading before I can say definitively if it would be a wild swing or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B389
If you have Peripheral Vision
(p. 74), two-handed melee attacks into
your right and left hexes, and one-
handed attacks to the same side (e.g.,
right hand to right hex), are not Wild
Swings. However, one-handed attacks
to the opposite side (e.g., right hand to
left hex), and attacks on foes behind
you, are still Wild Swings.
If the grappler is in the opposite-side hex, it's a Wild Swing, plus -4 for the grapple. Note that turning while grappled is problematic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
But like Tomsdad said, you really want to get control of the knife hand/arm.
Agreed, it's the best possible outcome.
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Old 12-11-2014, 10:31 AM   #33
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Good point. I hadn't thought of the possibility that you can't legally grab an arm from the opposing side (makes sense).
I would consider attacking from the non-weapon side anyway and just going for strikes. After all, if you are significantly more skilled than the opponent (which I presume is part of the premise here), you should be making your defenses, so the only real issue with the knife is that it can damage you on a successful parry. If you just keep striking from the non-weapon side, he will never be able to do that to you, and meanwhile you should be able to parry his attacks with your superior skill (and judicious use of retreats).
I understand the tactics here, but I'm not sure they are viable in GURPS tactical combat.

The hardest part is going to be getting into the bad guy's side hex. Assuming you are in his middle-front adjacent hex when he attacks, at best you can do a side-slip parry into his left front hex and then step into CC for the Arm Lock from there.

You are still in his front arc, and I haven't read anything about not being able to (or having any penalties to) attack an opponent in your left front arc when your weapon is in your right hand. Not to mention, he is going to turn to face you on his turn, so you will have a really difficult time saying in his side arc even if you manage to somehow get there (Committed attack, maybe?).

Quote:
So maybe instead of Judo we should be using Karate here for maximum damage potential, with the plan being to simply beat the pulp out of the knife-wielder...
From a GURPS standpoint, both is a good idea (or Brawling + Wrestling to save points). Once you control or lock the arm, you can use kicks, knees, and headbutts to do damage.
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Old 12-11-2014, 10:45 AM   #34
TheOneRonin
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I think I read somewhere recently that you can lock any arm, not necessarily the one that was attacking you, but don't take my word for it.
That might very well be the case, but if so, it really ruins verisimilitude. Every time I've ever seen anything like an arm lock performed after a strike, it's locking up the striking limb.

Now, you could always just Parry and then AoA Double/RS on your turn to grab and l lock the opposite arm. But I'm still convinced that the Arm Lock happens to the attacking limb, not the limb of your choice.

Quote:
If the grappler is in the opposite-side hex, it's a Wild Swing, plus -4 for the grapple. Note that turning while grappled is problematic.
Agreed, but you still have to get to the SIDE hex. If you are still in the FRONT arc (ie. middle, right front, left front hexes), then he can attack you without penalty.

Stepping into Real Life for a moment, even though it's tough for an attacker to reach your torso with a knife while you have his opposite arm in a proper lock, you will still get your arms (which are easy to reach) slashed to $hit.

I love training with BJJ guys for this very reason. They have lots of good grappling moves, but most of them fail badly vs. the knife.

Quote:
Agreed, it's the best possible outcome.
By the time you get that point, the outcome is pretty binary. Get control of the knife/weapon arm, or get cut/stabbed (possibly to death).

There isn't a lot of room in between.
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Old 12-11-2014, 10:47 AM   #35
Gnome
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
I understand the tactics here, but I'm not sure they are viable in GURPS tactical combat.

The hardest part is going to be getting into the bad guy's side hex. Assuming you are in his middle-front adjacent hex when he attacks, at best you can do a side-slip parry into his left front hex and then step into CC for the Arm Lock from there.
All the more reason to use Karate! Kicks have Reach 1, so if you step into his left-side hex (after slipping into the left-front hex on his attack), you can kick him without fear of being hurt on the parry.

So if our hypothetical barely-realistic-highly-skilled martial artist has ST 13 and Karate at DX+1 at least, and he's wearing boots, he'll kick for 1d+3 cr, or an average of 6.5 points of damage. It shouldn't take many of those to ruin Mr. Knife's day! In fact, if knife guy has only 10 HP, that will be a major wound and a likely fight-ender in just one hit (especially if that hit was to the face, for a -5 to the stun check, or to a limb or appendage for a crippling blow).

I'm getting more and more convinced that messing around with grapples is a waste of time. Karate guy should be able to kick the s**t out of his knife wielding opponent without too many problems (assuming knife guy is your average HT10 ST10 skill12 mook).

On the other hand if the knife guy is also highly skilled...he should probably win the fight, since he's armed and the martial artist is not.
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Old 12-11-2014, 10:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
The hardest part is going to be getting into the bad guy's side hex. Assuming you are in his middle-front adjacent hex when he attacks, at best you can do a side-slip parry into his left front hex and then step into CC for the Arm Lock from there.

You are still in his front arc, and I haven't read anything about not being able to (or having any penalties to) attack an opponent in your left front arc when your weapon is in your right hand. Not to mention, he is going to turn to face you on his turn, so you will have a really difficult time saying in his side arc even if you manage to somehow get there (Committed attack, maybe?).
Committed Attack, double step to move from his left front hex to his left flank hex, and from there into close combat on his left flank side. He's at -2 to defend from the flank and can't defend with the knife (though whether you can arm lock his weapon arm from his position is debatable; I'd defer to people with real world experience).

Of course, since you've make a Committed Attack with both hands, if you miss the lock then he can attack and you have to Dodge at -2, no Retreat, so this is a specialist tactic. If you succeed, the foe is in bad shape, since you're on his flank and he can't turn while grappled, so all his attacks have to be Back Strikes or Wild Swings.

I wouldn't worry much about a mugger breaking free of an arm lock after it's secured: the standard game mechanics make that pretty unlikely for normal human foes. If you're a DF Martial Artist trying to arm lock an ogre, it's a bit iffy, but a ST11 human generally can't overcome a +9 bonus.
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Old 12-11-2014, 11:10 AM   #37
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Of course, since you've make a Committed Attack with both hands, if you miss the lock then he can attack and you have to Dodge at -2, no Retreat, so this is a specialist tactic. If you succeed, the foe is in bad shape, since you're on his flank and he can't turn while grappled, so all his attacks have to be Back Strikes or Wild Swings.
This is a situation where I'd probably All-Out-Attack (Double) over CA. Unless I'm Captain America-level of peak human performance, my dodge-2 with no retreat... well, I'd put more trust into another attack to make sure I don't need to try. Plus, if I have Move 5, I can walk from front center hex around to left flank and turn to face my opponent: or if I'm trying to get into CC, I'll need Move 7 to walk from front center to front left, front left to left flank, turn to the right and walk into CC.
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Old 12-11-2014, 11:34 AM   #38
TheOneRonin
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
All the more reason to use Karate! Kicks have Reach 1, so if you step into his left-side hex (after slipping into the left-front hex on his attack), you can kick him without fear of being hurt on the parry.
You know, I hadn't thought of that, but it does work to keep the knife out of play for parrying. It doesn't stop him from doing a retreating dodge to put you in a different hex for his next attack, but you can rinse and repeat your initial tactic.

Quote:
So if our hypothetical barely-realistic-highly-skilled martial artist has ST 13 and Karate at DX+1 at least, and he's wearing boots, he'll kick for 1d+3 cr, or an average of 6.5 points of damage. It shouldn't take many of those to ruin Mr. Knife's day! In fact, if knife guy has only 10 HP, that will be a major wound and a likely fight-ender in just one hit (especially if that hit was to the face, for a -5 to the stun check, or to a limb or appendage for a crippling blow).
I think targeting the leg here is much better than the face. With only a -2 to hit and a major wound on average damage, it seems like a no-brainer. You should also have some room to throw some deceptive attack in there.

Quote:
I'm getting more and more convinced that messing around with grapples is a waste of time. Karate guy should be able to kick the s**t out of his knife wielding opponent without too many problems (assuming knife guy is your average HT10 ST10 skill12 mook).
I'm going to need to read some more on this, but that might very well be the case in GURPS, which is a shame since it really doesn't work out like that in Real Life.

Quote:
On the other hand if the knife guy is also highly skilled...he should probably win the fight, since he's armed and the martial artist is not.
Agreed. What stinks in this case is that the Knife Fighter doesn't get a +3 on retreating parries because his weapon isn't a "fencing" weapon.

As far as I'm concerned, if the Knife Fighter has Karate, Judo, or Boxing in addition to Knife, he should get the footwork bonus for a retreating parry.
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Old 12-11-2014, 11:46 AM   #39
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Agreed. What stinks in this case is that the Knife Fighter doesn't get a +3 on retreating parries because his weapon isn't a "fencing" weapon.
A function of the Skill and not the weapon. If he uses Main Gauche (an Average Skill) he does get the Retreat bonus. Knife is like Brawling. Both are Easy skills and quick and dirty.
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Old 12-11-2014, 11:50 AM   #40
TheOneRonin
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Committed Attack, double step to move from his left front hex to his left flank hex, and from there into close combat on his left flank side. He's at -2 to defend from the flank and can't defend with the knife (though whether you can arm lock his weapon arm from his position is debatable; I'd defer to people with real world experience).
IRL, Finger/Wrist locks are doable from the opposite flank, but you won't be at the right angle to properly leverage the elbow or shoulder.

If I ended up on the knife-wielder's left flank, I'd probably be trying for a foot trap of some sort or maybe a strike to the side of the knee. I for sure would be trying to continue my movement and not just hang around in range of the knife that is inevitably going to be coming for me.
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