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Old 08-21-2006, 05:44 PM   #11
Brandy
 
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
That doesn't reality check well IMO.
It's a pretty abstract rule to be calling shenanigans on reality checking. It's easy enough to house rule out if you feel strongly about it though.
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Old 08-21-2006, 05:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

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Originally Posted by mbasico
No, Extra-effort means a physical effort above his capacity or physical condition, whatever they are.
If it's above his capacity, wouldn't it be... impossible? No, Extra Effort is just that: extra effort. If you're in great conditon you can push yourself harder and more often. It's a fact. Now if you don't want to reflect that fact in your game, that's fine - I don't mind at all. But I know I will be reflecting it in mine.
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
If it's above his capacity, wouldn't it be... impossible? No, Extra Effort is just that: extra effort. If you're in great conditon you can push yourself harder and more often. It's a fact.
A lot of facts fall under the GURPS' radar, that's surely one. Also the Fatigue and Extra Effort mechanics is so abstract and gamist, that calling reality checks is pretty silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Now if you don't want to reflect that fact in your game, that's fine - I don't mind at all. But I know I will be reflecting it in mine.
If you rule so, keep in mind that you alter sensibly Very Fit value in combat. I think you should up the price.
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

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Originally Posted by Luther
A lot of facts fall under the GURPS' radar, that's surely one. Also the Fatigue and Extra Effort mechanics is so abstract and gamist, that calling reality checks is pretty silly.

If you rule so, keep in mind that you alter sensibly Very Fit value in combat. I think you should up the price.
By those lights, calling reality checks on nearly anything in a game is silly (and I'm certainly willing to cede that). But if you have fatigue points in a game, and you have an advantage that halves their expenditure, you should apply it consistently. There's nothing silly about it.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:24 PM   #15
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Well, no. Realistically, doing anything tires you a fraction of FP but that falls below the GURPS radar so we have an abstract rule of getting tired - if you exert yourself you get tired (lose FP) and if you're used to getting tired, you (as an abstract rule) lose less fatigue points when you exert yourself in armor or under extreme conditions. This is the game mechanic meaning of being very fit. Very fit has that price for this effect. If you feel the game effect does not meet your standard of Very Fit you should assign a higher price to the advantage (which is an abstract game tool with a set price for a set function) that is Very Fit.

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Old 08-21-2006, 07:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

The fact that GURPS always rounds injury, fatigue, and point costs up for the PCs is entirely consistent. "Inconsistent" here would be rounding down for any reason. One could argue that there are bizarre "quantum effects" owing to the fact that N 1-FP expenditures always round up to N FP, while for N > 1, a single N-FP expenditure would become N/2 and always save at least 1 FP . . . but so it goes. Such quantum effects are part and parcel of GURPS having a resolution level or granularity, like any other game. In this case, the effects were also intended. Very Fit is the advantage of suffering less from large, realistic FP burns and not the advantage of needing fewer FP for unrealistic effects (cinematic martial-arts skills, magic, psi, etc.) -- and extra effort in combat is heroic silliness, not realism. Its FP cost was set at 1 FP with the full knowledge that no effects that halve FP costs would work on it. Realistic FP costs for a fight are the ones assessed at the end.

In fact, the decision to make virtually all special skills that cost FP and all extra effort cost 1 FP per use was made with the full knowledge that round-ups would negate Very Fit. :)
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:39 PM   #17
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehmet
Well, no. Realistically, doing anything tires you a fraction of FP but that falls below the GURPS radar so we have an abstract rule of getting tired - if you exert yourself you get tired (lose FP) and if you're used to getting tired, you (as an abstract rule) lose less fatigue points when you exert yourself in armor or under extreme conditions. This is the game mechanic meaning of being very fit. Very fit has that price for this effect. If you feel the game effect does not meet your standard of Very Fit you should assign a higher price to the advantage (which is an abstract game tool with a set price for a set function) that is Very Fit.

Cheers...
I see your point, but nowhere under Very Fit does it say "only when wearing armor": by that reading of the rules, taking Very Fit is foolish for anyone not accustomed to wearing armor or carrying a heavy kit - an absurdity on the face of it.

For example: an unarmored Very Fit combatant facing an unarmored combatant without the advantage loses 1fp at the end of each combat (or period of a few minutes my Basic Campaigns is at another house right now, I forget how many minutes it was exactly), just like he does. This is extremely counterintuitive, to say the least. Rather than slavishly following the "round-up" rule, wouldn't it be better to simply asses the Very Fit character's penalty every other "round"?

That's not adding anything extra to the advantage, that's simply applying it as written. The rule says "you lose FP at half the normal rate". To give a character less than that requires some explanation, I would think. I certainly don't feel the need to charge extra to give a character what's explicitly promised in the rules.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

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Originally Posted by Kromm
The fact that GURPS always rounds injury, fatigue, and point costs up for the PCs is entirely consistent. "Inconsistent" here would be rounding down for any reason. One could argue that there are bizarre "quantum effects" owing to the fact that N 1-FP expenditures always round up to N FP, while for N > 1, a single N-FP expenditure would become N/2 and always save at least 1 FP . . . but so it goes. Such quantum effects are part and parcel of GURPS having a resolution level or granularity, like any other game. In this case, the effects were also intended. Very Fit is the advantage of suffering less from large, realistic FP burns and not the advantage of needing fewer FP for unrealistic effects (cinematic martial-arts skills, magic, psi, etc.) -- and extra effort in combat is heroic silliness, not realism. Its FP cost was set at 1 FP with the full knowledge that no effects that halve FP costs would work on it. Realistic FP costs for a fight are the ones assessed at the end.

In fact, the decision to make virtually all special skills that cost FP and all extra effort cost 1 FP per use was made with the full knowledge that round-ups would negate Very Fit. :)
Well, there's no court of appeal higher on this one than your good self Sean, so I must quit the field I suppose ;). My guess is that if we want to simulate the in-shape versus out of shape contestant scenario I just described, we simply buy more FP for one of them?
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

But in GURPS you always round up FP costs. So if you allow 1 FP expenditure per 2 actions you're changing the effectiveness of the advantage. This means you need to change it's price too.

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Edit: Oooops. Beaten by the Line Editor :)
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Last edited by Mehmet; 08-21-2006 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
That's not adding anything extra to the advantage, that's simply applying it as written. The rule says "you lose FP at half the normal rate". To give a character less than that requires some explanation, I would think. I certainly don't feel the need to charge extra to give a character what's explicitly promised in the rules.
as Kromm point out Standard GURPS rounding rules still apply. but lot of small quick Fatigue spending is tires even very fit people more quickly than long stead fatigue burn. But very fit still lets to recover quicker from extra effort.

not Extra effort is pushing yourself beyond your conditioned optimal performance this is tiring regardless of how fit you are, just the more fit recover quicker.
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