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Old 04-19-2018, 03:30 AM   #41
Gollum
 
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
If I was going to try and model an animals fighting style that heavily relies on a couple of instinctual tactics to the exclusion of others, I would have a relatively low combat skill, and have maxed out techniques and/or technique mastery.
Yes. It would be another way of doing it. Probably more realistic. But giving them a high combat skill level is just simpler. Especially for animals (which are usually not as much detailed as sentient characters).

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
(I think that article makes the point about animals with TM?)
Sorry, I don't understand what is TM.
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:30 AM   #42
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Put it simply I have Skill 14 and you have skill 14, we each roll 3d6, who do you bet on to win?
For a normal opposed skill check it is equal.

But a feint is not a normal opposed skill check.

So to try to simplify it even more:

I am ignoring the cases where one or both fail in the following explanation and just explain when both succeed, if one or both fails the results for feints are as for normal opposed skill checks.

Also I am assuming a simplified thing of the attacker always doing feint and then attack regardless of the feint result, thus when the feint fails he will attack after a failed feint.

case 1(45% of cases): Attacker succeeds more than defender: The defenders defense is lowered. Thus the attacker has easier time in getting through.

Case 2(55%) : Attacker succeeds less or equal to defender: The defenders defense is not lowered. Thus the attack is as if the attacker did not do a feint.

So you should see that as there is no case where the defender gets a benefit when attacker feints.

On average over infinite number of strikes(so that result is exactly according to odds):
When in case 1, the average reduction is 3.73
When in case 2, the reduction is always 0
So in total over all strikes the average reduction of defense is 1.68
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:31 AM   #43
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Deceptive attack can be instinct too.

That just means it doesn't adjust its tactics all that much. I consider 'deceptive attack' to incorporate all the methods by which high speed and skill can make it hard on a defender, most of which are not particularly clever.
That's exactly what I wanted to mean.
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:43 AM   #44
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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I think the combat system may work well, but I want to voice an opinion that may be a bit premature.

I'm a bit bothered by the necessity to over rely on critical hits. If two opponents have high attack and defense skills, it seems a bit perverse that the usual success roll mechanics fail to apply as well as the alternate critical hit mechanics as sophisticated as they are. ....
Thing is the system allow for other tactics than just tryng to muscle a high defence with high Attack (even if that muscling also involves reducing one in order to reduce the other i.e DA).


What actually matters for increasing defense over and above attack is additional bonuses to defence over and above that of high skill. In a scenario of just skill based defense (i.e Skill/2+3),than DA is just about enough to compensate as Skill increases.

But its those additional situational bonuses to defense that often have ways to negate or circumvent them.

Ultimately having a high defence (including bonuses to it for shields or fencing retreats etc) is an advantage, but you usually have to trade off some where to get that, and there are usually options for your opponent going around those bonuses rather than trying to overcome them with good rolls.


A similar situation comes up with DR. If you are wearing enough DR in comparison to you opponent's damage output, say for example DR6 vs. 1d+1 then in theory your opponent has to rely on lucky rolls to effect you even slightly.

But as per above wearing DR6 comes with a trade off for you, but unless it's full body, flexible and universally applicable to all forms of harm, there is possibly ways around it. whether it's hitting where the DR isnt or the DR is weaker, or going AoA(S), or chosing attack methods that partially or wholly negate the DR.


But it is an advantage

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-19-2018 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:46 AM   #45
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
Yes. It would be another way of doing it. Probably more realistic. But giving them a high combat skill level is just simpler. Especially for animals (which are usually not as much detailed as sentient characters).
TBH given the variable nature of conflicts I'm just as happy to to give animals a high skill to allow them to deal with variables (it does kind of depend on the animal though, I'd allow a wolf more allowance here than an ant)


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Sorry, I don't understand what is TM.
Sorry, TM = Technique mastery.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-19-2018 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 04-19-2018, 03:58 AM   #46
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
It is really not uncommon in games I've played to have PCs with active defenses in the 16-20 range before retreat bonuses, and to face enemies with similar defense levels. Deceptive attacks to off-shield flanks, two-or-more on one, rear attacks, magical spells for debuffs, bad footing, feints, close combat attacks (including grapples) - all of these things serve to push down defenses, and while 'one on one, both facing each other' would be interminable, neither PCs nor opponents ever actually do that.
Indeed or even "slightly higher".. :)

In my current campaign the PCs have(unbuffed):
1) Dodge 23, parry 29f (swashbucker/thief/bard swiss army knife)
2) Dodge 21, parry 30, block 28 (melee tank)
3) Dodge 22, parry 26 (melee damage dealer)
4) Dodge 22, Parry 19 (wizard)
5) Dodge 21, Parry 23 (Gunslinger)

So all the characters have above 20 dodge and the melee characters closer to 30 parry.

And of course the opponents often have similar values(or in case of single one meant to challenge whole group even higher)
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Old 04-19-2018, 04:28 AM   #47
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
For a normal opposed skill check it is equal.

But a feint is not a normal opposed skill check.

It is in terms of the less successful MoS removing effects from the more successful MoS though.


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Originally Posted by weby View Post
So to try to simplify it even more:

I am ignoring the cases where one or both fail in the following explanation and just explain when both succeed, if one or both fails the results for feints are as for normal opposed skill checks.

Also I am assuming a simplified thing of the attacker always doing feint and then attack regardless of the feint result, thus when the feint fails he will attack after a failed feint.

case 1(45% of cases): Attacker succeeds more than defender: The defenders defense is lowered. Thus the attacker has easier time in getting through.

Case 2(55%) : Attacker succeeds less or equal to defender: The defenders defense is not lowered. Thus the attack is as if the attacker did not do a feint.

So you should see that as there is no case where the defender gets a benefit when attacker feints.

I accept that there are possible win scenarios here for the feint-er, but all this started with me responding to this claim you made:

If you have two fairly low equally skilled fighters with high defense then feint is a huge benefit because of the huge spikes you can get in it. It is quite common to get a penalty up to 5-6 in feints with equal skill and at that point the defense is pretty low.



That infers that the balance of probability favors the feint-er in equal skill feints (to a great extent even), and it doesn't, especially when we get into the fact that they're trading off halving their actual attack rate and all the rest to do this.

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
On average over infinite number of strikes(so that result is exactly according to odds):
When in case 1, the average reduction is 3.73
When in case 2, the reduction is always 0
So in total over all strikes the average reduction of defense is 1.68
No case 1 is not correct, because it ignores the Defender MoS which will subtract from the Attackers MoS. The defenders MoS are not removed from determining the end result just because there wasn't an equal or greater number of them.

So OK that 3.73 is the average MoS the attacker can expect, it is the total of all the MoS per possible result x the chance of those results coming up.

e.g against skill 14 a roll of 10 gives 4 MoS and has a 12.5% chance of occuring so adds 0.5 MoS to that total

a roll of 5 gives 9 MoS and has a 2.78% chance of occurring so adds 0.2502 to that total

Now for simplicity's sake I ran a range of 3-18 so I actually get 3.66 average MoS rather than 3.73 but close enough.


But the result of the attacker is not just decided by the attackers likely MoS, even if they net win. It is the attackers MoS - the Defenders MoS even if the latter is less. As you say if there were equal or more than it would be case 2.

So case 1 above "attacker beats defence by getting more MoS" still has to take into account the fact that any MoS of the defender gets will drag the net result away from just the straight average MoS for a Skill 14, and back towards zero Margin of victory.

What you've got is:

Case 1 = Attacker succeeds more than defender: The defenders defense is lowered... by the Attacker's MoS only ignoring any Defenders MoS.

when it should be:

Case 1 = Attacker succeeds more than defender: The defenders defense is lowered... by the total of Attacker's MoS minus any Defender's MoS


The average result and reasonable expectation of the 2nd is lower then the 1st, and since you are multiplying it by 0.45 to get the overall expected average result it's impact in terms of actually turning into a positive result is lowered again. Even once it's occured it has to be not only big enough to be give an effect in the system, (you need to reach a Margin of victory of 1 to have a realisable effect) but that effect also has to be worth the trade off of doing this in the first place! I.e a successful feint doesn't automatically allow you to ignore your opponent's defence when you follow up with an attack, it just mitigates it by how good it was, and you've halved you attacks etc

either way not IMO really matching:

If you have two fairly low equally skilled fighters with high defense then feint is a huge benefit because of the huge spikes you can get in it. It is quite common to get a penalty up to 5-6 in feints with equal skill and at that point the defense is pretty low.



These spikes are possible, but because you have two competing MoS's even if one is higher then the other you are going to tend to the middle. Additionally since 3d6 is itself a bell curve that 'tends to the middle', we have two 'tending to the middle's' compounding here. Normal distributions interacting are kind of like this.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-19-2018 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 04-19-2018, 04:32 AM   #48
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Indeed or even "slightly higher".. :)

In my current campaign the PCs have(unbuffed):
1) Dodge 23, parry 29f (swashbucker/thief/bard swiss army knife)
2) Dodge 21, parry 30, block 28 (melee tank)
3) Dodge 22, parry 26 (melee damage dealer)
4) Dodge 22, Parry 19 (wizard)
5) Dodge 21, Parry 23 (Gunslinger)

So all the characters have above 20 dodge and the melee characters closer to 30 parry.

And of course the opponents often have similar values(or in case of single one meant to challenge whole group even higher)
Dear God, what are their stats?! ;-)
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Old 04-19-2018, 05:08 AM   #49
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No case 1 is not correct, because it ignores the Defender MoS which will subtract from the Attackers MoS. The defenders MoS are not removed from determining the end result just because there wasn't an equal or greater number of them.

So OK that 3.73 is the average MoS the attacker can expect, it is the total of all the MoS per possible result x the chance of those results coming up.
No. it dies NOT ignore it. it SPECIFICALLY includes it.

The 3.73 is the average of all the "attacker success-defender success" results where attacker succeeds more than the defender.
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Old 04-19-2018, 05:22 AM   #50
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Default Re: High defenses in 4th edition

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Dear God, what are their stats?! ;-)
Well, the stats are pretty low for the power level due to limitations, with dex ranging from 14 to 20.

But enhanced dodges are 2,2,4,6,6
and weapon skills: 43, 31, 44, 35, 46

The weapon skills are mostly due to massive points in the skill: with the melee tank having 303 points in knight!(+24 points waiting until he can learn more) and the melee damage dealer 204 points in sword!.
The swashbuckler type only has 85 points in smallsword and the mage only has 32 points in smallsword...
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