Scaling Supers - pricing of Innate Attack and DR

[TJA]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Yep, put some limitations on the DR.
But against Vehicle weapons and such Damage reduction is better overall and more in genre. Supers rarely shrug off high powered attacks as if nothing happened, instead most supers who can take that kind of power tend to just take little damage and tough it out. For that damage reduction is a better model.
Also defenses are in general going to be more expensive then attacks, significantly so and this is also typical of the genre. Also real life really.
Effective Supers dont go toe to toe with startships by dishing out and taking the same amount of power. They avoid many hits and take glancing blows which can be signified by damage reduction and good dodge. Also they are smaller then usual targets so harder to hit in the first place.
I recommend you buy some DR force fields and attacks with the Extra effort enhancement if you want them to be more like that. This also is appropriate becasue many Supers who can duke it out with starships cant do it for long or typically go up against just one ship not a fleet.
Exceptions like the Silver Surfer are truly exceptional not the norm.

But also attacks can be bought with Cosmic or armor divisor or corrosion or many other abilities to take advantage of their flexibility vs. warships.


Edit
That Extra Effort enhancement or overall rulle feature if you want to use it that way is a real good option for letting heroes be able to do normal stuff then ultra powered stuff. buying up some nice ER or extra fatigue to power it is not that hard. Special recharge on the ER, needs to power up off a sun or antimatter power reactor not only makes it cheaper but helps keep it from being used in situations you dont want it to.

SO, you try to create supers in a way that avoids using high levels of DR and even high levels of Innate Attack?

Would´nt it be better to have a non-linear way to buy those as well?
And with M-Scale Supers, we may reach the same levels as the Silver Surfer! The rules scale for that - with the exception of DR and IA.
Which i dislike :)

[TJA]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The point of the scaling rules is precisely that point value as such does not give you a good sense for how combat capable a super is. So you have a super who has N points—but there are some things they could spend that N points on that are just way too high-powered in combat. So you impose a separate "no more than this much damage, no more than this much damage resistance" and so on, that cuts them off short of the full amount they could buy, to get the combat capabilities in balance, not just the overall capabilities.

If scaling could be translated to "no more than so many points" then you wouldn't need scaling at all! You could just set a point limit and bob's your uncle. Or Clark. . . .

I don´t quite get what you say here.

In Supers, there is one explanation: Super, p112

"This book doesn’t provide them [multiplicative progression] for Damage Resistance or Innate Attack; both have low point costs, relative to that of ST, and making them even cheaper would undermine the usefulness of super-strong heroes, which clashes with the assumptions of the supers genre."

But this just tries to give a reasoning for why not to include them.
But to be honest, i don´t see the point of that reasoning - i just see, that i cannot build the supers i wanted.

With Super Effort (Super Abilities table), ST is a very capable and extremely cheap thing to buy!
Even the book mentions that, when recognising that the ST to destroy the whole planet is alarmingly cheap!

Anyway - as i have the attention of the author - what *could* be a valid progression for non-linear costs for DR and IA? Just IF you decided to include them into Supers?

You want to make damage from IA more expensive than damage from ST, so how could it fit into the SAT (p146)?

One level regulary costs about 5 points (just talking about crushing damage here), so 10 cost 50p and 20 100p.
Maybe multiplying the damage like on the Range/Speed table having cost like this?

Level cost
20d 100p (still regular price)
30d 150p
50d 200p
70d 250p
100d 300p
150d 350p
200d 400p
300d 450p
500d 500p
700d 550p
1000d 600p
1500d 650p
2000d 700p
3000d 750p
5000d 800p
7000d 850p
10000d 900p
15000d 950p

So, an M-Scale super could buy the maximum of 15000d for 950 points.
It would be more expensive than the maximum allowed levels of DamRed and ST.

Just as an idea ...
Did i get it wrong? Would you do it different?
(Edit: I just noticed, that the progress from the SAT is 25p per level ... and maybe that the above should be more expensive? Not sure ...)

And then, some more column for DR ....

Would be great :)

[Ludek]

I don't, ... really :) . Scaling option you mentioned is sufficient though I started from scaling rules form basic set.
How exactly I play it out? I decide on scale PC will play in like 2, 5,10, 20,50,100 (higher may be possible for truly godlike beings
but I played at max. scale of 10) with is multiplier for their damage dealt to buildings and other inanimate stuff (things I call
decorations) and most of of NPC - unimportant ones and malus to their resistance roll vs afilictions (-2 per scale step is IMO
sufficient). Important NPC get different treatment I build them not form point pool like PC but just decide on their skills levels ,
attributes, advantages and (eventually superpowers) so calculating their point total bing pointless IMO so I just slap on top of this
their scale (it may be different form PC's ). For simplicity sake I rule that multiplier for damage between scales changes for
each step of difference like 2, 5, 10 ... it helps to avoid making making some scale values better than others.
I you want to build PC in different scales or to calculate NPC point totals just assume for simplicity that PC are default scale is
default (one you intended for PCs). Then you have to calculate /decide for max DR, HP and dmg in the game avaliable for PC - it's
good to have something like that anyway at least to give some guidelines for players and perhaps to set up some limits to prevent
potential problems like:
- instant kill attacks that kill most of NPC's (including important ones)
- red mist (powerful attack that ofter one hit character dies instantly)
- armored eggshell (character have some protection in form of DR that once penetrated spillover dmg causes usually death)
It's usually becouse of interplay between allowed minimal HP and DR vs max. dmg. But since you want mixed scale game you
may not care about this in this case calculate point totals of lower scale characters in context of you default scale max HP, DR
and dmg So if you want in scale 10 ordinary human (scale 1) with HP 15 DR 10 (some form of protection) and dealing max
damage of 3d , he becomes HP 1(perchaps 2) , DR1 and dmg 1 pip (adjust it with reduced striking ST in case of natural
damage, in case of IA just take one pip of IA) and -6 to all resistance roll versus scale 10 afiliction attacks (I rate at 20 to 40 per
-1 disadvantage depending frequence of afilictions being used). I reduce stats of lower scale character because point of
reference is scale 10 (in this case) and it's the same if you multiply damage by 10 or just divide target's DR and HP by 10 (except
for some small rounding errors). In case of higher scale characters just give them more HP, DR, dmg and more irrestible afilictions.
This may require some tweaking in area of lifting ST (you may change lifting calculation formula or just alter default lifting ST cost
and default value), ruless regarding high powered attack spillover - usally IMO 10d nonexplosive attack in scale 10 (in sclae 1 it's
100d ) should cause some disruption in nearby hexes (ignorable for scale 10 characters) but it ma be quite deadly for lower scale characters .. in game terms it may be some sort of modified weakess or just feature of given game. You may also make some effects that are area based (or just depend on number of peole) and maybe dependant on number of peple or just range more impresive/efective vs lower scale characters (someting like summonig , controling group of people comes to mind)
Or you may just forget about scale just decide about general multiplier to damge vs inanimate things and describe form this
point of reference and make ordinary human as puny as you see fit. Just don't forget to make a lot of NPC much
easer to afilict (if you make killing them much easer it's only fitting to make afliction much more difficult to shrug off).
But I think that having of some sense of scale of given character is useful guideline how well he may resist more esoteric attacks and judge/enhance situation in case mass control/affect power or powers mainly depending on range (in case powerfull supers it may be sensible to make inetrplanetary teleport/communication much easier )

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by TJA

SO, you try to create supers in a way that avoids using high levels of DR and even high levels of Innate Attack?

Would´nt it be better to have a non-linear way to buy those as well?
And with M-Scale Supers, we may reach the same levels as the Silver Surfer! The rules scale for that - with the exception of DR and IA.
Which i dislike :)

I do give them a high DR but something in the hundreds or so at the level your talking about but also Damage reduction. Damage reduction is much more reliable and fits the genre better. The problem with DR is once you penetrate it it only takes a little bit to kill the character or significantly injure them. Damage reduction helps greatly with that.
Going the route of pure DR you either have attacks bounce off harmlessly or kill the character. This is bad and not in genre with most comics.

As for attacks why don't the extra effort rules work for you?
Extra Effort Powers p160 gives us a start and See Supers P101 for additional increase.
Super Effort is an enhancement described a couple of places (Powers p58 is te first use I think) and in Supers can optionally be applied to other abilities like Innate Attack. See Human Artillery Supers p122

At +400% its expensive but Its kind of nice since you can have a high output blaster who has normal levels against other Supers but much higher levels when he really needs it or plot requires it.
Again I especially like it with a ER that requires Special recharge.

Also see Ultrapower using the section in Supers p112 under one use powers, particular the option a the end for doing it in a single turn.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I do give them a high DR but something in the hundreds or so at the level your talking about but also Damage reduction. Damage reduction is much more reliable and fits the genre better. The problem with DR is once you penetrate it it only takes a little bit to kill the character or significantly injure them. Damage reduction helps greatly with that.
Going the route of pure DR you either have attacks bounce off harmlessly or kill the character. This is bad and not in genre with most comics.

Most characters shouldn't have pure DR, I agree, unless you're building Iron Man. But the point being made, I think—certainly the one I had in mind in GURPS Supers—was that pure Damage Reduction isn't quite right, either, for some heroes. With, say, Damage Reduction 100, if some normal man hits you with a club, they'll do less than 100 points; when you divide by 100 you'll get some fraction, which . . . rounds up to 1 point! So over time, a gang of normals with clubs can beat you to a pulp, or to death. But there are a lot of comics heroes who would just shrug off those club blows—too small to notice. "Nothing less than a bursting shell could penetrate his skin" and so on. So to imitate them, you take however much Damage Reduction you can afford, and then add on DR 5, 10, or 20 to cancel the small change attacks.

Bill Stoddard

[Lamech]

I would recommend for high damage supers gernes that you just scale up everything damage related. I.E. Your innate attack hits for *10, everyone has *10 HP, everyone has *10 DR ect. You can ignore it when two supers are fighting since everything cancels out, but if a super is hitting an inanimate object it still works.

Also it avoids the problem of: "Oh hai Mr. tank you spent 750 points on defenses? I have reflexive, cosmic insubstantiality and unkillable III, and supernatural durability. And I got this neat affliction that can kill anyone from anywhere!"

[Snaps]

The problem with the scaling is that they've let a cat out of the bag for things like Strength, but are hesitating to let it out for other things like innate attack.

The Cat I'm talking about of course is Super-Effort.

If they are going to let it out for things like Telekinesis, Strength, Warp then they eventually have to allow it for things like Innate Attack.

Going off of Telekinesis I would price Super-Effort for Innate at +500%. Super-Effort for Telekinesis is +400% for lifting or +900% for lifting and damage. From this I'm getting that super-effort on something that can be used at range would be +500%.

Seems fair to me, and its the only way you are going to get characters that can do things like blow up buildings, spacecraft, etc.

But compare a high level innate attack with super-effort to one using godlike extra effort and a large energy reserve:

A 50d burning attack is 250 points. +20 Will is 100 points (maybe cheaper if you can put a limitation on it like extra effort only). A 100 point energy reserve is another 300. At this point you are getting +100% for every energy you spend, or +10,000% If you spend them all.

So now your 50d attack is a 5000d attack. Add in Regeneration 10/rnd at 150 points and you are now blowing up 1 Starship every 10 seconds.

That sounds like the Silver Surfer to me. He usually flies around for a few rounds, trading fire with something like a star cruiser, then gets fed up, energy pours out of his eyes and he blasts the thing in one massive attack.

This would be half the cost of trying to buy Innate Attack with Super-Effort at that damage level.

Not to mention you can double this with things like Power Blow (Dragon Ball Z anyone?)

It isn't hard to make the Silver Surfer in GURPS. If anything its too easy!

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Snaps

The problem with the scaling is that they've let a cat out of the bag for things like Strength, but are hesitating to let it out for other things like innate attack.

The Cat I'm talking about of course is Super-Effort.

If they are going to let it out for things like Telekinesis, Strength, Warp then they eventually have to allow it for things like Innate Attack.

Going off of Telekinesis I would price Super-Effort for Innate at +500%. Super-Effort for Telekinesis is +400% for lifting or +900% for lifting and damage. From this I'm getting that super-effort on something that can be used at range would be +500%.

Seems fair to me, and its the only way you are going to get characters that can do things like blow up buildings, spacecraft, etc.

But compare a high level innate attack with super-effort to one using godlike extra effort and a large energy reserve:

A 50d burning attack is 250 points. +20 Will is 100 points (maybe cheaper if you can put a limitation on it like extra effort only). A 100 point energy reserve is another 300. At this point you are getting +100% for every energy you spend, or +10,000% If you spend them all.

So now your 50d attack is a 5000d attack. Add in Regeneration 10/rnd at 150 points and you are now blowing up 1 Starship every 10 seconds.

That sounds like the Silver Surfer to me. He usually flies around for a few rounds, trading fire with something like a star cruiser, then gets fed up, energy pours out of his eyes and he blasts the thing in one massive attack.

This would be half the cost of trying to buy Innate Attack with Super-Effort at that damage level.

Not to mention you can double this with things like Power Blow (Dragon Ball Z anyone?)

It isn't hard to make the Silver Surfer in GURPS. If anything its too easy!

Yeah, I like Super Effort on Innate Attacks because of the inherent normal vs. boosted damage and less rolls. Godlike Extra effort I think is a more clunky build.
However for these kind of will rolls I allow a technique to buy off the penalty and you have to call your special attack something cool :)

In 3e I allowed for a special power kind of like UB that scaled your powers in the appropriate circumstances and was a leveled trait, based off the Speed/range table. Similar to Damage Reduction now in fact, though it applied to all or most of your powers.
For the right game I could see a switch you could buy (or maybe even a campaign feature) that would be similar to IT:Damage reduction but for your attacks or defenses, maybe for each power or maybe everything.
However similar to the old 2e? racial strength multipliers it has its own problems balance wise.

My current favorite method is to just allow Super Effort at +400% on just about any power. After all Cosmic +300% could ignore DR.
I would like to see a Power Ups: Supers or something rolling in a few ideas and design switches. I like the Supers book but one of my problems with it is it just seems like its built around offering so many options that things got scattered in too many places.

[TJA]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I do give them a high DR but something in the hundreds or so at the level your talking about but also Damage reduction. Damage reduction is much more reliable and fits the genre better. The problem with DR is once you penetrate it it only takes a little bit to kill the character or significantly injure them. Damage reduction helps greatly with that.
Going the route of pure DR you either have attacks bounce off harmlessly or kill the character. This is bad and not in genre with most comics.

This is true.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Super Effort is an enhancement described a couple of places (Powers p58 is te first use I think) and in Supers can optionally be applied to other abilities like Innate Attack. See Human Artillery Supers p122

At +400% its expensive but Its kind of nice since you can have a high output blaster who has normal levels against other Supers but much higher levels when he really needs it or plot requires it.
Again I especially like it with a ER that requires Special recharge.

Now, Godlike and Super Effort are very similar - the first requires a high Will and at best lots of FP or ER, but you can reach very high levels - while the second just makes reaching those levels more easy in terms of Will and FG/ER.

But you are right, Godlike Effort can be used to reach very high levels - not so often and regular, but still - the more, the question remains why Super Effort cannot do what Godlike Effort can do, increasing levels of Innate Attack.
And both do not help with higher levels of Damage Resistance ...

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by TJA

But you are right, Godlike Effort can be used to reach very high levels - not so often and regular, but still - the more, the question remains why Super Effort cannot do what Godlike Effort can do, increasing levels of Innate Attack.
And both do not help with higher levels of Damage Resistance ...

All based purely on what we see in the comics. At least from my acquaintance, energy-beam characters don't commonly push their output up that high, except as a "one desperate effort" like the Human Torch's nova blast, for which I provided Ultrapower. Armor is similarly limited; really tough characters combine tough armor with inherent ability to tolerate damage, which works better as Damage Reduction. There's no inherent reason you can't make up such stuff. But I didn't because my focus was on capturing the supers genre from the comics.

If you wanted to make up your own house rules, I'd say go for it. I just don't think you'll be running the same genre.

Bill Stoddard