Youth is a weird prerequisite for Steal Youth

[edk926]

It really wouldn't be that easy to gather 100 people in general in the same place. How often are we around that many people at once as an adult outside of concerts, sports stadiums/arenas, movie theaters, and maybe a particularly large wedding?

[hal]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

<shrug> I still wouldn't assume that wizards can easily gather 100 clog dancers unless I actually wanted an industrial enchantment setting. For one thing, in the cast of critical failures I'd give a backlash to every participant in the spell.

That's what I do for my own campaign - however...

The bit of the backlash affecting everyone - as best as I can understand the wording - largely depends whether or not the spell backfire for a ritually cast spell affects simple spectators, or only affects CIRCLE magic. In 3e, the information on spell backfires affecting everyone is stated thus:

"The energy cost may be shared among the linked mages in any way they
agree on. If there is a backfire, the GM may either assess one huge result, or
roll separately for each person in the Circle. A backfire involving a dozen
mages can be a chaotic event indeed!"

Note however, there are TWO ways to cast ritual magic. THe second is an entry all of its own, and that involves spectators.

Mind you, if it were me writing this, I would have written it such that it has "Ritual Magic". If spell backfires affect everyone, I would have written it such that it says up front, that any spell backfire affects everyone involved.

Then, anything specific to Circle magic - gets described under Circle Magic. Anything unique to Spectator magic, gets described under spectator magic.

Unfortunately, in GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC, that isn't the case. The spell backfire is only listed under circle magic itself. It COULD be argued that since Circle magic was listed first, that the spell backfire concept cascades down to the spectator. But it can also be argued that it is unique to circle magic only because only in circle magic are the assistants supposed to know the spell being cast - at 15+. The Mage Assistants can add more energy at once than can a simple spectator. There are some other aspects specific to circle magic casting, but they don't relate to spectators in the same manner (ie, knows the spell but at less than 15 and can cast it, or knowing it at 15+ but not being able to cast it - perhaps a spell that doesn't require magery?)

In any event, I'm not certain whether or not one can combine both Circle Magic technique and Spectator Magic technique to have say, 3 mages with skill 15+, 1 mage (Leader) with spell skill 18, 5 mages who know the spell at 14 or under, and 100 spectators who TRUELY believe and wish the spell to succeed. If you have four mages with a 50 point powerstone each, 9 fatigue each that they can add to the mix, the theoretical top energy available to that casting group would be...

4 x 9 = 36
4x 50 = 200
5 x 3 = 15
100 x 1 = 100

Final amount available = 351 energy.

All of the above listed is LEGAL per GURPS 4e, because they give an actual example in a box on page 12 (GURPS MAGIC for 4e). What I find interesting is this provision:

"•A spectator must support the ceremony of his own free will. A mind-controlled subject cannot focus sufficient will to contribute energy."

Does this imply that you can't make/force a slave to participate in the ceremony? If forced, it would technically qualify as coerced, aka - not of their own free will. But, that's a quibble that each GM running their own campaign can decide. ;)

So, to reiterate - Ritual spell casting in 4e is FAR easier and more successful than is Ritual spell casting in 3e. I'm guessing that this was made to be so deliberately rather than an attempt to save on word count for the book in order to have it come in at under a given cost. But, that's just a guess. I think what annoys me most is that many of the spells that were "improved" over their GURPS FANTASY or GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition game mechanics - were done because people complained and complained...

PENDRAGON magic as a system states up front, you can bring back the dead to life. You can't undo aging. It is inherent to the "structure" of what is or isn't possible. Complaining that the copy spell isn't a useful as a Xerox machine misses the point that the copy spell is superior to having to produce documents using calligraphy. Having done calligraphy by hand - I KNOW what goes into it. Standardized spelling, standardized typeface etc - made reading all the more useful and easier. Having the copy spell as originally written was magical enough - but hey, those who complained got it to be EVEN Better!

While they were at it, why didn't they make a lot of the other spells more "efficient" such as the detect enemy spells, or the sense life spells etc? Why can you get more water created per unit of fatigue by using the rain spell, than you can with create water spell directly? Just odds and ends that are just plain "weird" or just odd.

In the end, make it your own. Fix what you think needs to be fixed, and enjoy gaming with your buddies at the table. I know I did for 30+ years. ;)

(as an aside? The Alaconius Method of divination to produce unquirked powerstones is used in my game worlds even if the rules say it can't. It should not have taken my posting it on GURPSNET to make it so that they changed GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition 2nd printing to include the new boilerplate "you can't do that". So, I do it despite it.)

[Culture20]

Originally Posted by edk926

It really wouldn't be that easy to gather 100 people in general in the same place. How often are we around that many people at once as an adult outside of concerts, sports stadiums/arenas, movie theaters, and maybe a particularly large wedding?

Every time you go to a busy sit-down restaurant. Each table is 2-6 (4), with say 50 tables, not to mention the bar, waiting room, and the floor and kitchen staff.

Also religious worship services. If the spellcaster in question is the benevolent king of the realm who brings the rain, calms the hurricanes, defeats the orcish hordes, and resurrects the dead, I think there will be more than a hundred people who gladly assist in the spells as a regular ritual.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Culture20

Every time you go to a busy sit-down restaurant. Each table is 2-6 (4), with say 50 tables, not to mention the bar, waiting room, and the floor and kitchen staff.

Also religious worship services. If the spellcaster in question is the benevolent king of the realm who brings the rain, calms the hurricanes, defeats the orcish hordes, and resurrects the dead, I think there will be more than a hundred people who gladly assist in the spells as a regular ritual.

Being benevolent is a lot of work. Particularly for the kind of person who uses Steal Youth.

But seriously I'd be fine if Steal Youth was a straight run from Steal Vitality.

[dcarson]

I'm seeing a small town a overnight trip from the big city. It has a mage that knows Youth well enough to cast it with very little chance of failure, an apprentice and lots of experienced spectators. Who help because when the well to do enough to afford the service come there, they and their retinues stay in the local inns, eat in the restaurants, possibly now that they are young again need clothing more suited to the new vitality, faster horses/cars etc. Like places that make a living off of the local spa.

[hal]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Being benevolent is a lot of work. Particularly for the kind of person who uses Steal Youth.

But seriously I'd be fine if Steal Youth was a straight run from Steal Vitality.

Not a bad idea. Consider it stolen. ;)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Originally Posted by edk926

It really wouldn't be that easy to gather 100 people in general in the same place. How often are we around that many people at once as an adult outside of concerts, sports stadiums/arenas, movie theaters, and maybe a particularly large wedding?

Put an ad in the local paper. "Show up such-and-such location at such-and-such time, follow the instructions, and I'll pay you $30" or whatever.

I'd probably put a skill or training requirement of some kind, so spectators who want to help with the spell need to do more than wave a candle around and chant a little. Either make it skill-based (leading to a thriving market in thaumatology undergrads and the like offering their services to support archmages' big rituals), or make it something like a specific perk (so you need to spend ~200 hours training potential spectators). That doesn't fix the other oddities with the system, but...eh.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

P

I'd probably put a skill or training requirement of some kind, so spectators who want to help with the spell need to do more than wave a candle around and chant a little. Either make it skill-based .

My chosen "fix" would be to make it a requirement of a pt in Religious Ritual (usually). The spectators wouldn't need Skill-12 but the ritual leader would need that and Leadership.

So if you turn up needing one of those expensive Healing Spells like Instant Restoration or Instant Regeneration you get told "Ah, you'll need to go see the fellers down at the White Temple.". So you go and give them a "donation" and you get fixed up but also have a reason to generally stay on their good side in the future. They're gnerally popular in town to abecase when the Plague comes they can throw a _lot_ of Cure Disease Spells.

The "White" priesthood might not make quite as much money as conventional Mages-for-hire but they gain compensating social benefits. the rural equivalnt of the "White" priesthood is a generic "Green" priesthood that apecializes in those mass Plant College spells that revolutionize fantasy agriculture. For "white" or "green" substitute names of "gods" (or perhaps saints) that strike you as good or appropriate.

A Ritual(Hermetic) specialization would be theoretically possible but not so likely in my view. If you've got enough magical activity (such as a major Magical University) to create a market for mass ceremonial castings those might fill up with minor Mages (Magery 0 or low experience students).

[GreatWyrmGold]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The "White" priesthood might not make quite as much money as conventional Mages-for-hire but they gain compensating social benefits. the rural equivalnt of the "White" priesthood is a generic "Green" priesthood that apecializes in those mass Plant College spells that revolutionize fantasy agriculture. For "white" or "green" substitute names of "gods" (or perhaps saints) that strike you as good or appropriate.

So...I assume blue mages would hire some undergrads from the local university, but what about black and red? I guess black mages could do the Thriller thing, but red mages seem SOL.

[Apollonian]

Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

So...I assume blue mages would hire some undergrads from the local university, but what about black and red? I guess black mages could do the Thriller thing, but red mages seem SOL.

Raves, dionysian bacchanals, that sort of thing, I think. They might attach themselves to a group and try to capitalize on/steer their energy..