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Old 09-04-2014, 05:23 PM   #21
Crakkerjakk
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Default Re: Concrete examples, Taz Walker

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Tactical Shooting p8 says explicitly that you can ready a pistol in condition 3 with Fast-Draw at no penalty. The job does normally take two hands, and can't be done silently.
Thing is if you're wearing clothes over the top of your holster, you're often pulling them out of the way with your off hand. It can totally be done, but it's the kind of thing that takes practice and is more complicated than just "draw fast from a holster on your hip."
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Old 09-04-2014, 05:26 PM   #22
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Default Re: Concrete examples, Taz Walker

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Tactical Shooting p8 says explicitly that you can ready a pistol in condition 3 with Fast-Draw at no penalty. The job does normally take two hands, and can't be done silently.
It says that you can Ready it instantly with a Fast-Draw roll, but it doesn't mention anything one way or the other about that action being 'free' if taken at the same time you are using Fast-Draw to Ready the weapon from a holster. It certainly doesn't say that such a draw is just as fast and easy as drawing and using a weapon carried in Condition Zero or Condition One.

The standard penalty for doing more than one thing at a time in GURPS is -2. That might be a very strict interpretation in this case, however.

On the other hand, it feels wrong to have two characters, one of whom is carrying a weapon in Condition Zero and one of whom is very careful and carries his in Condition Three, nevertheless be on exactly equal footing if they both have to Fast-Draw their weapons. Surely the one who can simply pull the trigger once he has drawn the weapon has an advantage over the one who has to rack the slide before the weapon can be fired.

So maybe a -1 to Fast-Draw is fairer. I'm looking to see what opinion other forumites have of this.
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Old 09-04-2014, 05:30 PM   #23
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Default Re: Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
I'd say it just indicates that Undercover holsters are too expensive. You can get an okay IWB tuckable for $50-75. I'd call a Milt Sparks a Fine Undercover Holster.
Fine is +19 CF and an extra +2 (quality). Good-quality, for an extra +1, is still +4 CF.

And an extra +1 to Holdout is very significant. It makes a full-sized handgun as easy to conceal as a tiny pocket pistol.

I'd be more inclined to rule that +1 CF for an Undercover Holster means that it is Rugged or Expensive (x2/3 Weight), in High-Tech terms.

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And yeah, I'd say -2sounds about right.
Feels fair to me, upon reflection.
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Old 09-04-2014, 06:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

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Fine is +19 CF and an extra +2 (quality). Good-quality, for an extra +1, is still +4 CF.

And an extra +1 to Holdout is very significant. It makes a full-sized handgun as easy to conceal as a tiny pocket pistol.

I'd be more inclined to rule that +1 CF for an Undercover Holster means that it is Rugged or Expensive (x2/3 Weight), in High-Tech terms.

That is true, but I have a friend who regularly CCs a full-size 1911 in jeans and an untucked light button up shirt with the Versa Max 2. Even knowing he's carrying, it's pretty hard to spot.

Regardless, my point is that you can find average quality IWB holsters for about $50 and up. So $125 is more than you HAVE to spend on one, in the real world.

On your "scale of Holdout Modifiers" chart, I'd have +3 be heavier jackets that go from midthigh (pea coats, army surplus jackets) to waist, +2 be lighter versions, and +1 be untucked light overshirt. +0 I'd have pants (jeans or similar) and t-shirt. Basically set the +0 at the ordinary clothing.

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Originally Posted by HT63
Ordinary Clothes
This is typical work wear or everyday dress for a temper-
ate climate: military uniform, shirt and trousers, t-shirt and
bib overalls, etc. Even this much clothing may increase FP
costs in hot climates, as described under Fighting a Battle
(p. B426). Cost is 20% of cost of living; weight is 2 lbs.
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Old 09-04-2014, 06:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

My typical work attire is tucked in lightweight tucked in polo shirt, khakis, and belt and shoes (exactly what sort the shoes are is a mystery).

I am however IRL extremely interested in the notion of heavy comfortable moisture wicking hiking socks! Do these things really exist? If they do exist, do they come in black, and do they come in boot length (or full calf) suitable for wearing with tactical boots?

I used to wear tactical boots for work and was required to wear black socks, and I still wear them for LARP and such
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Old 09-04-2014, 06:28 PM   #26
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Default Re: Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

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My typical work attire is tucked in lightweight tucked in polo shirt, khakis, and belt and shoes (exactly what sort the shoes are is a mystery).

I am however IRL extremely interested in the notion of heavy comfortable moisture wicking hiking socks! Do these things really exist? If they do exist, do they come in black, and do they come in boot length (or full calf) suitable for wearing with tactical boots?

I used to wear tactical boots for work and was required to wear black socks, and I still wear them for LARP and such
I don't know if all of these work, but hiking socks for warm weather exist.

In the US, I bought a lot of sport socks designed to wick away sweat and just breathe in general, because I am an arctic creature and do not respond well to 100 F heat and massive humidity.

These tended to be very low-cut, all coming just to the ankle, but I was surprised at how thick some of them were. They worked pretty well, I'd say. A lot cooler to wear than normal cotton socks.

Some of mine are black. Some have patterns in them, grey and red, but others are just plain black. None of them are knee-high or even full-calf, though.
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Old 09-04-2014, 06:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
That is true, but I have a friend who regularly CCs a full-size 1911 in jeans and an untucked light button up shirt with the Versa Max 2. Even knowing he's carrying, it's pretty hard to spot.
That could be Holdout at skill 12+ that he has*, modifed by Bulk -2 and +1 for an Undercover Holster. Skill 11 against a regular person with Observation at skill 5-8 will work out pretty well at range 3-7 yards, for -1 to -3 penalty. Even a somewhat aware observer, with skill 9-11, is going to have a hard time spotting it at a glance without Taking Extra Time to scan him carefully.

It's just trained guards who get within 2 yards that he has to worry about.

Incidentally, how long do you have to eyeball someone to get an unmodified Observation check to determine if he's armed?

Is it a one-second Concentration maneuver, with a serious professional eyeballing rating a bonus of up to +3 for Taking Extra Time (representing around 10 seconds of beady-eyed suspicion)?

Or is a ten-second scan the norm and spotting a concealed weapon in one glance is cinematic and should take -10 to Observation?

I'd lean toward having an unmodified roll take less time than ten seconds, but it seems fairly generous for each person scanned to take one second to have a fairly good idea whether he's armed or not.

But maybe that's why Observation skill at 12+ people are super-good at being adventurers. They have an excellent chance of knowing about all concealed weapons that are potentially in play.

*If he carries every day and cares about actually concealing the weapon, he'll learn how to do it well. Even if it's technically an Optional Specialisation in his particular favoured pistol or a Technique for his usual outfit, I'd be surprised if people who carry concealed all the time don't manage to reach at least skill 12 somehow.

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
Regardless, my point is that you can find average quality IWB holsters for about $50 and up. So $125 is more than you HAVE to spend on one, in the real world.
Agreed. The vast majority of commercial brands, even reputable names, are around $50-$90, with most clustering very close to $60.

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
On your "scale of Holdout Modifiers" chart, I'd have +3 be heavier jackets that go from midthigh (pea coats, army surplus jackets) to waist, +2 be lighter versions, and +1 be untucked light overshirt. +0 I'd have pants (jeans or similar) and t-shirt. Basically set the +0 at the ordinary clothing.
I very much agree that +0 ought to represent 'ordinary clothing', but I am not at all sure that jeans and a t-shirt combo describes a typical ordinary outfit in a temperate climate.

An ordinary outfit in a temperate climate has some form of covering over the underwear on the upper body, often enough two layers, even if that's only a shirt and light jacket.

I note that New York or Washington D.C. in July are not temperate climates, they are simmering hell-ovens of soggy heat.
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

Jeans and a tshirt seems to be a pretty common form of attire from Northern parts of Canada down into Central America, though weather dependent of course
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:26 PM   #29
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Default Re: Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

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Jeans and a tshirt seems to be a pretty common form of attire from Northern parts of Canada down into Central America, though weather dependent of course
Wouldn't they count as Summer Clothing?
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

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Wouldn't they count as Summer Clothing?
I'd say it depends on how heavy the shirt is (light long or short sleeve could be summer, heavier could be ordinary, and actually heavy long sleeve could get into cold weather), and I'd say the pants would have to be lighter than most jeans or instead of pants be shorts.
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