How do you adjudicate initiating HTH?

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Because an attacker using option (b) doesn't stop for engagement, but ends their move placing their counter on top of the defender. It's clearly the exception to the front hex rule:

"A disengaged figure picks option (b) to initiate HTH combat; he moves onto the enemy’s hex during movement and attacks during combat."

That's about as plain as day. Now keep in mind this move (if passing through a defender's front hex) can only be made if the defender is kneeling or has the lower MA. That's just what the RAW say.

Surely there has to be a roll for damage from a set pole weapon -- what's the contradiction? Pole weapons strike out of sequence, always going first, so...

Attacker moves counter through front hex of defender with set pole arm. Pole arm strikes first, so roll immediately for damage. If the defender misses, the attacker finishes their move on top the defender's counter and attempts to initiate HTH. If the defender hits, the attacker is either dead one hex shy of their goal (so no HTH) or if still alive after getting impaled, my choice would be to rule the attacker is now a screaming shish kabob held one hex away... the moment should be exploited for its cinematic qualities.

There are two reasons why this is not as clear as day (to me at least). 1) you go from disengaged to engaged as you step into the hex in front of a foe, and the basic rules of engagement say you have to stop then regardless of where else you intended to go that turn. That is, if I wished to run up to someone and then pop off to their side I can't - as soon as I become engaged my move ends. And 2) it isn't at all clear how a set pole weapon is supposed to attack someone following your approach to initiating HTH. Pole weapons attack first in the action sequence, but they do not attack during the movement phase. You might cook up a house rule based on the way pike's work, but that is an extrapolation and an interpretation, not something obvious. Anyway, I'm not convinced that it is at all a good idea to let someone run right up to your front facing and initiate HTH during movement with no pause or opportunity to attack.

[Skipper2921]

The way I read HTH Combat, the rules are defining the exceptions to engagement rules. The second paragraph "To initiate HTH combat, a figure moves onto the enemy's hex. If the attacking figure is disengaged, this is a regular move." That is telling me the attacker does not have to worry about engagement. The next sentence "If the attacking figure is engaged, he may shift onto a figure engaging him to attempt HTH, even if he is engaged with other figures as well." This sentence lets you disengage without choosing option (n).

I'm interested to see how the pole weapons discussion goes. Just a thought. "Therefore, on any turn when a pole weapon is being used in a charge attack or against a charge attack(or both), roll all the pole-weapon results first, in order of adjDX, before resolving any other ATTACKS." Could this be part of the reason for stating initiating HTH combat is considered an attack?

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

There are two reasons why this is not as clear as day (to me at least). 1) you go from disengaged to engaged as you step into the hex in front of a foe, and the basic rules of engagement say you have to stop then regardless of where else you intended to go that turn. That is, if I wished to run up to someone and then pop off to their side I can't - as soon as I become engaged my move ends. And 2) it isn't at all clear how a set pole weapon is supposed to attack someone following your approach to initiating HTH. Pole weapons attack first in the action sequence, but they do not attack during the movement phase. You might cook up a house rule based on the way pike's work, but that is an extrapolation and an interpretation, not something obvious. Anyway, I'm not convinced that it is at all a good idea to let someone run right up to your front facing and initiate HTH during movement with no pause or opportunity to attack.

I agree completely. If you initiated HTH from the rear, I guess I could see how you could do that in the movement phase. But I'd advise against it, since it just introduces an exception that doesn't serve much purpose (unless that purpose is to allow initiation and an HTH attack in the same turn).

[larsdangly]

It's impossible to say what the intent was - the RAW are vague and incomplete on these points and we are not likely to get a direct clarification. But I think combining both the suggested pole weapon house rules (letting them deliver an attack in the movement phase) and the suggested reading of the HTH rules (letting you jump someone from the front in a single move, ignoring engagement and actions) could be ok. But doing the latter without the former could spell trouble.

Personally, I prefer the most parsimonious rulings whenever I can think of them, and to me the use of the engagement rules I suggested at the start of this thread feels like the best way to make one simple ruling and get all the outcomes you want.

[Axly Suregrip]

Even when HTH is initiated during movement (through moving onto the foe through a rear/flank hex), the attack does not happen until the action phase. This keeps it consistent with all else.

If engaged or became engaged during movement, then you would shift onto your foe during actions phase (just like you shift away during actions when disengaging), and then you are immediately entitled to an attack.

There is no conflict with pole weapon rules as you do not get to move into engagement and onto your foe. You have to stop since engagement does this. The only way you can get onto someone into HTH and avoid the stand-against charge is by moving onto him during movement through a rear/flank hex. Note that if you had stopped adjacent, he could have turned to face you and got you with the pole arm. This is the advantage of moving onto someone during movement but the must first error in giving you this opening.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by hcobb

You wouldn't assume that the attacker gets to move an unlimited number of hexes to do this?

Unlimited, no! Using option (b) limits you to no more than 1/2 MA movement.

Originally Posted by Shostak

I'd also say "No" but this appears to disagree with your earlier comment that "For a disengaged figure, using option (b), "The Attempt To Initiate" functions as movement. It occurs during the movement phase, and does not use up the chance to act."

Apologies, I messed up that example horribly. I mixed the 1/2 MA movement portion of option (b) with the use of option (o) in the same turn, but that clearly isn't kosher! Option (o) limits movement on the turn it is used to stand still or shift. All I was really trying to say in the example of the "slow method" is that it takes more than 1 turn to get into HTH combat with option (o) because you have to get adjacent first (movement portion of the first turn) and then wait until the action portion of the subsequent turn to make your move onto the enemy's hex. Wouldn't be any reason not to swing on any enemy during the action phase of the first turn if you're otherwise eligible, you just can't try HTH with option (o) yet because you used movement the same turn to reach the adjacent hex. If your only goal was to get into HTH with that opponent, you'd do it this 2-turn way if the 1-turn method of using option (b) was impossible due to its restrictions.

Originally Posted by Shostak

If the defender has not acted yet, then yes, they should, because if they can't act and repel an HTH initiation attempt in the same turn, then any HTH attempt made against a figure who has already acted would be an automatic success.

Exactly how I'd rule it to. I think that's the intent of the RAW although it doesn't explicitly mention it. Seems like common sense.

Originally Posted by larsdangly

There are two reasons why this is not as clear as day (to me at least). 1) you go from disengaged to engaged as you step into the hex in front of a foe, and the basic rules of engagement say you have to stop then regardless of where else you intended to go...

Except when using option (b), because the HTH rules say so!

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Pole weapons attack first in the action sequence, but they do not attack during the movement phase. You might cook up a house rule based on the way pike's work, but that is an extrapolation and an interpretation, not something obvious.

Of course I was extrapolating -- and my suggestion (that's all that was) would probably be the house rule I'd use if a figure ever threw their body at someone facing them with a set pole arm. Can't say I ever saw anyone do that... yet! :) Yes it's the movement phase, but I see it as reasonable to asses the result then and there, as I would if someone chose to run headlong into a wall with a spike sticking out of it. The spike wouldn't wait for the combat phase to hurt you :) Think I'd make the defender roll to hit (with the +2DX for the set pole weapon) but I'd call it a free action under the circumstances -- I'd still let the defender have their turn to act in the combat phase.

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Anyway, I'm not convinced that it is at all a good idea to let someone run right up to your front facing and initiate HTH during movement with no pause or opportunity to attack.

I'm somewhat ambivalent about it myself, but that's exactly what the rules say. Elsewhere the rules only say one figure per hex, except where they don't. Again I'll say as far as violating that sacred ZOC (zone of control) for the defender's front hexes, option (b) only allows it under two circumstances: (1) the defender is not standing up, or (2) the attacker has a higher MA. It's nearly the only place in the rules where the relative speeds of two figures is invoked to determine anything, which personally would make me loathe to controvert it. MA seems so neglected.

Acceptance of the rule as is doesn't mean I'd let anyone nerf it by running around in multiple front hexes first, then jumping on the defender to attempt HTH. Surely it's SJ's intent that anyone using option (b) to get into HTH on the movement phase do so in as direct a manner as possible. The attacker, upon entering one front hex, has to continue on to enter the defender's hex without stopping if they are using (b) to attempt HTH. Nor would they get to ignore anyone else's front hexes en route to the defender. And those are hardly house rules -- that's just disallowing anything silly.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Skipper2921

The way I read HTH Combat, the rules are defining the exceptions to engagement rules. The second paragraph "To initiate HTH combat, a figure moves onto the enemy's hex. If the attacking figure is disengaged, this is a regular move." That is telling me the attacker does not have to worry about engagement. The next sentence "If the attacking figure is engaged, he may shift onto a figure engaging him to attempt HTH, even if he is engaged with other figures as well." This sentence lets you disengage without choosing option (n).

^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^

[larsdangly]

'Exactly what the rules say' is a stretch, I would say. The rules never sharply state that you can do what you are using in your table rulings. As a point of contrast, Option o makes it explicitly clear that BOTH the attempt to initiate HTH and the first HTH attack comes in the action phase, not the movement phase:

"(o) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK. During the
movement phase, the figure stands still or shifts; when its
turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent
enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or (if it was ready)
its dagger" (from p. 103 of ITL).

Option b doesn't spell this out, but groups entering HTH along with other forms of charge attack, the others of which follow the principle that you move during movement phase and attack during action phase. I'd say this could go either way, though it would be strange to use option o as written but a contradictory ruling for option b.

All of this is even more ambiguous because the later section providing more details about HTH says:

"When a figure is attacked HTH, it immediately (that is,
still in the movement phase) rolls one die to determine its
defense against the HTH attack, as follows:" (from p. 117 of ITL)

It is inescapable that option O of p. 103 simply contradicts the quoted passage from p. 117. There is no reading of the two that makes them consistent with each other. So, we are stuck with having to make house rules that reconcile them. My approach (you enter HTH during movement phase if you can do so without becoming engaged by your target or anyone else on the way in; you have to do so during the action phase if you became engaged as you approached or started the turn engaged) isn't the only solution, but it is maybe the only one that lets p. 103 be correct all the time and p. 117 be correct some of the time. They can't both be correct all the time, so some sort of compromise is the best you can ask for. Plus I like the outcome, in terms of balance and general consistency with the flow of the rest of the rules.

[Shostak]

Perhaps useful questions for us to ask are "What is it that we gain by making at least some HTH initiations an exception to the standard turn sequence? What are the domino effects of that exception? How does any of this make the game more fun?"

From my perspective, allowing the HTH initiation during movement adds only confusion (and plenty of it), it opens the door to other thorny questions, like "What about set polearms and last-shot missile attacks?", and that is less fun for me than just following standard rules for movement and engagement and having the actions take place in adjDX order, as normal.

[larsdangly]

It is definitely confusing, that is for sure. I am satisfied with the way I've been playing it, but a simpler hack all around would be to say that initiating HTH is always performed during the action phase, regardless of facing, engagement, etc. If you follow option (o), you would do this as a special roll just before your attack rather than in place of your attack. Alternatively, you could think of initiating HTH as happening with a timing equivalent to the 'push back' that large figures can do vs. smaller ones. That happens at the end of your movement and is a special event separate from either the normal parts of your move or your actions. The practical difference between these versions is that if you treat it as a part of the agressor's action then the target might get to act before them, whereas if it is a special thing that happens at the end of movement, like a push back, they do not.

Speaking of which, maybe we need a separate thread about the crazy consequences of how push backs work w/r to set pole arms and other issues...