Brawling once again

[larsdangly]

Another thing I like about the Brawling talent, as is: It's a handy sign post to distinguished people who actually know how to fight vs. clowns who should stay away from fights. It's cheap enough and useful enough that you kind of have to get it if you are going to fight often and at close quarters. But if you have other life priorities the talent point can find use somewhere else.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Another thing I like about the Brawling talent, as is: It's a handy sign post to distinguished people who actually know how to fight vs. clowns who should stay away from fights. It's cheap enough and useful enough that you kind of have to get it if you are going to fight often and at close quarters. But if you have other life priorities the talent point can find use somewhere else.

Well, doing away with the +1 HTH bonus means you don't have to worry about brawling being as good as a dagger. That makes your life easier. You've simplified the rules and gotten the result I desire.

[hcobb]

If the brawler moves first and stops in front of the dagger wielder then she will spend 3 MA to walk around to the brawler's rear hex during her move and then she stabs him in the back.

If the dagger wielder moves first then she steps up to engage the brawler straight on so he can't shift to her side hex.

Note that once the brawler enters the dagger wielder's front hex his movement stops and he'll need to use option (o) to back into her hex when his turn to act comes. The dagger wielder on the other hand can just walk into his hex from any direction during movement if she chooses to do so. (Subject to the HTH defense roll at ITL 116)

[Skipper2921]

I'm convinced it is good as it is. The brawler naturally fights well with their hands, but hasn't taken the more formal UC training. They have learned there are times they do not want to use all their skill. Maybe so the local proprietor doesn't ban them or they understand the value of maintaining adventuring relationships. Adding Carousing amplifies this understanding and provides a way to keep "friendly" fights from getting too serious. The non-brawler hasn't learned this and fights with full ability.

As for stacking with +1 for HTH either way works. I can imagine the natural fighter being equal to a dagger in HTH. This could make an interesting high-strength but low-IQ character. If it sticks in your craw or believe it unbalances, you are the GM!

Great conversation. Thanks.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

If the brawler moves first and stops in front of the dagger wielder then she will spend 3 MA to walk around to the brawler's rear hex during her move and then she stabs him in the back.

If the dagger wielder moves first then she steps up to engage the brawler straight on so he can't shift to her side hex.

Note that once the brawler enters the dagger wielder's front hex his movement stops and he'll need to use option (o) to back into her hex when his turn to act comes. The dagger wielder on the other hand can just walk into his hex from any direction during movement if she chooses to do so. (Subject to the HTH defense roll at ITL 116)

It seems you are assuming that the brawler can't engage the dagger wielder, which is indeed what RAW implied before the last update.

The footnote on p. 106 reads:

An enemy does not literally have to be armed in order to engage you. We hate to say this, but Use Common Sense. For instance, a wolf, a martial artist, and a wizard are all dangerous foes and all of them engage you.

My common sense says a brawler is also dangerous and engages. He's at least as dangerous as a wand-wielding goblin wizard.

Thus, the situation is symmetric.

[Skipper2921]

Everyone doesn't need to carry a dagger (or buy Knife).

Another viewpoint. There are three talents to choose between if you want something better than bare hands when the main weapon is not available knife, brawling, UC-I. All cost 1.

Knife gives you a weapon you can throw, plus a path if you want to pursue expertise with the knife. In normal combat, the damage is set at 1d-1 regardless of strength and you have to spend time to ready the weapon. In addition, for HTH there is a 33% chance you will not be able to ready it for HTH combat. It can be learned at IQ 7. You can buy fine daggers that increase damage.

UC-I gives an increase in damage +1 to bare hands for regular or HTH combat. At a penalty of -4DX to get +2, but only in regular combat. Your bare hands are always ready, but a critical failure causes damage to your hands (or feet). There is also a penalty in the level of armor protection. It takes an IQ 10 to learn the first level. At the first level, UC doesn't provide much advantage, but the career path, if you survive, becomes formidable. The amount of damage done increases with strength. At ST 11-12 the regular combat damage is equal to a dagger.

Brawling gives up to +2 damage in regular or HTH combat. Your hands are not a thrown weapon. There is no career path. In HTH the hands are as good as a dagger (generally the rub) if you stack the damage advantages. The amount of damage increases with strength. Your hands are always ready. A critical failure causes damage to your hands. At ST 9-10 bare hands are as good as a dagger in regular combat.

I think Brawling was added to remove the penalty for not choosing Sword as your main armament. It gives an axe wielder, archer, and pole weapons wielder an option besides knife. Brawling offers an option by losing the option of having a throwable weapon, losing the ability to buy increased damage, there is no advancement of the talent, and gaining the chance to receive damage from critical failure. This is at the trade of having your hands ready for HTH or immediately after dropping a weapon.

UC-I is too expensive and seems to be a career path more than an option to knife. Brawling gives another option.

[hcobb]

RAW gives no engagement for the brawler. So if players insist on the rules as written let them have lions, and tigers, and bears moving directly through their front hexes into HTH.

ITL 117: "or if the defender is unarmed and does not have unarmed-combat skill, ignore a 6 and roll again."

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

RAW gives no engagement for the brawler. So if players insist on the rules as written let them have lions, and tigers, and bears moving directly through their front hexes into HTH.

ITL 117: "or if the defender is unarmed and does not have unarmed-combat skill, ignore a 6 and roll again."

The current RAW certainly does give engagement rights to brawlers and all other dangerous figures, even barehanded wizards. See the footnote on p. 106.

I'll buy that the text on p.117 intentionally left out brawlers.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Skipper2921

Everyone doesn't need to carry a dagger (or buy Knife).

Another viewpoint. There are three talents to choose between if you want something better than bare hands when the main weapon is not available knife, brawling, UC-I. All cost 1.

Knife gives you a weapon you can throw, plus a path if you want to pursue expertise with the knife. In normal combat, the damage is set at 1d-1 regardless of strength and you have to spend time to ready the weapon. In addition, for HTH there is a 33% chance you will not be able to ready it for HTH combat. It can be learned at IQ 7. You can buy fine daggers that increase damage.

UC-I gives an increase in damage +1 to bare hands for regular or HTH combat. At a penalty of -4DX to get +2, but only in regular combat. Your bare hands are always ready, but a critical failure causes damage to your hands (or feet). There is also a penalty in the level of armor protection. It takes an IQ 10 to learn the first level. At the first level, UC doesn't provide much advantage, but the career path, if you survive, becomes formidable. The amount of damage done increases with strength. At ST 11-12 the regular combat damage is equal to a dagger.

Brawling gives up to +2 damage in regular or HTH combat. Your hands are not a thrown weapon. There is no career path. In HTH the hands are as good as a dagger (generally the rub) if you stack the damage advantages. The amount of damage increases with strength. Your hands are always ready. A critical failure causes damage to your hands. At ST 9-10 bare hands are as good as a dagger in regular combat.

I think Brawling was added to remove the penalty for not choosing Sword as your main armament. It gives an axe wielder, archer, and pole weapons wielder an option besides knife. Brawling offers an option by losing the option of having a throwable weapon, losing the ability to buy increased damage, there is no advancement of the talent, and gaining the chance to receive damage from critical failure. This is at the trade of having your hands ready for HTH or immediately after dropping a weapon.

UC-I is too expensive and seems to be a career path more than an option to knife. Brawling gives another option.

A good argument in terms of game balance, though I think the fact a knife is throwable isn't a significant advantage without Thrown Weapons.

There's still the plausibility of a street fighter doing the same damage as a knife wielder, but some realism must be sacrificed for simple mechanics. Just for my own sanity, I might tell players that dirty fighting only gives +1.5 points of damage, not two. That way, it's strictly less than a dagger.

Before rounding.

[hcobb]

I wouldn't want to be a brawler punching against metal armor.