Considering the standard 5 Mile Hex for TFT

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by guymc

These are the map scales specified in In The Labyrinth, and that's pretty much what I am working with so far for material we are publishing. Like some of you, Steve's intent here was to use a consistent scale that's easy to remember. Each larger scale is approximately 3x the previous one -- but then rounded to an easy-to-visualize and remember approximation.

Thus:
Labyrinth scale: 1 hex = 3 yards (9 feet), not 1 hex = 12 feet.
Village scale: 1 hex = 10 yards, not 12 yards
Town scale: 1 hex = 30 yards, not 36 yards
City scale: 1 hex = 100 yards, not 108 yards
County scale: 1 hex = 300 yards, not 364 yards
Barony scale: 1 hex = 900 yards, not 1092 yards
Duchy scale: 1 hex = 1.5 miles, not 1.86 miles
Province map scale is 1 hex - 5 miles, not 1 hex = 5.58 miles

I don't if this will help but my experience with mapping is that the ideal appears to be four level of maps. Interior, Local, Region, and Campaign.
I personally use 12.5 mile hexes for campaign maps because that equate to 5 hours of walking.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IuIC0P5Yr...Viridistan.jpg

The regional maps have 2.5 mile hexes each one hour to walk across.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f2v1T-gDn...2BRev%2B03.jpg


I may use a smaller regional map where each hex .5 miles across. But I only done that twice.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zY6LvYZdYF...2BArea%2B2.jpg

To be clear I only pointing out that you don't need so many different levels of mapping. The system of scales is fine and the fact they are all 3x multiples is fine as well.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Based exclusively on all those post-1981 references, I would agree - even though all those different authors couldn't seem to agree either - hence all the various scales you cited.

If you will simply research within the '74 Original D&D, Volume III, The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures, I think you will find the original standard was set and cited on page 17, under the topic of: Scale, recommended as: a 5 Mile Hex.

And there you have it.

Based on the standard 5 Mile Hex; wherein the 5 Mile Hex can be zoomed-in to to contain 625 smaller hexes which are encompassed by the larger 5 Mile Hex overlay; with each smaller hex being 0.2 miles (1056 feet or 352 yards) across, and containing 22.2 acres or 967,032 sq. feet. And, that same 0.2 mile hex can also be zoomed-in to contain smaller hexes considered to be 42.24 feet wide, with the 0.2 mile hex now serving as the overlaying hex, etc. This feature, allowed Bob Bledsaw's Judges Guild to turn out a metric ton of adventure modules, supplements, and reference guides based on that same scaleable 5-Mile Hex for adventure mapping, to dovetail with D&D products.

Additionally, it is this up and down scaling, based around the standard 5-Mile Hex, which in turn, when placed as either 5 hexes across the face, or, 5 hexes across the side, inspired the creation the diagram illustrated on page 47, of the 1979, 1st edition Dungeon Master's Guide for AD&D - along with the instructions that the hexes can be made to any scale - such as: for *world maps* of *considerable territories* at 20-40 miles across - which I would *not* consider a suitable scale for the map of Southern Elyntia, as it appears on page 48 of TFT:ITL, as rendered at a scale of 1 hex = 7.76 miles (12.5 km).

Unfortunately, *why* and *how* the original 5-Mile Hex was used mechanically seemed to get lost after the time people transitioned to AD&D from D&D.

Without the knowledge of the reference of the original standard as it appeared in '74 Underworld and Wilderness Adventures on page 17, and *carefully reading* what Gygax is actually talking about - being the ability to scale up for *world-mapping of considerable scale*, in the '79 DMG on page 47 which you cited - as he fails to mention the original 5-Mile base (I guess people were expected to know this from D&D) and there is no clue provided as to *why* he is showing a big whopping diagram *specifically based around 5 hexes*.

Maybe... but check the original reference first, then carefully re-read what Gygax actually wrote about 20-40 mile hexes for use in mapping *considerable territories*, and you may come to a different conclusion; or not.

JK

Gygax's "Standard" wasn't kept. Observed more in the breach. As in, rejected by the industry. Not even within TSR, not even himself 5 years later. That's why you're way off base.

[Terquem]

I'm still getting line weight "over sizing" on my pdf map sheet. I am going to try something different today to see if I can create an 8.5x11 sheet of paper with a faint hex grid for players to make their own maps

I'm also going to use blank lines for scale notations so players can chose their own scale when drawing the map on the sheet.

[Shadekeep]

I'm working on a couple of designs in which travel on the map is a major component of the adventure. I'd like to include a time-of-day track as part of it as well. One map is based on a real-world location and is roughly 15 miles from the center of one hex to the next. For that I am thinking the time track would be just three parts of the day (8 hours per block), and each hex movement use one unit (with one of the three blocks typically being used for rest). Does that sound reasonable?

I'm still playing with the scale of the other. My initial layout was 2 miles hex-to-hex, with a time slider of 6 parts (4 hours), but that seems like a pretty slow travel rate, especially compared to the above. Does anyone have thoughts on generalised travel times in an RPG setting? I know it's typically influenced by terrain type as well, but my maps handle terrain a bit differently and I'd like to use a simpler time rule (same amount per hex moved).

Thanks!

[Terquem]

Originally Posted by Shadekeep

I'm working on a couple of designs in which travel on the map is a major component of the adventure. I'd like to include a time-of-day track as part of it as well. One map is based on a real-world location and is roughly 15 miles from the center of one hex to the next. For that I am thinking the time track would be just three parts of the day (8 hours per block), and each hex movement use one unit (with one of the three blocks typically being used for rest). Does that sound reasonable?

I'm still playing with the scale of the other. My initial layout was 2 miles hex-to-hex, with a time slider of 6 parts (4 hours), but that seems like a pretty slow travel rate, especially compared to the above. Does anyone have thoughts on generalised travel times in an RPG setting? I know it's typically influenced by terrain type as well, but my maps handle terrain a bit differently and I'd like to use a simpler time rule (same amount per hex moved).

Thanks!

A lot of people use the "15 to 18 miles in a day" - travel paradigm for adventurers on foot. I suppose it is alright. I usually don't, only because I have walked 18 miles in one day and believe me, the next day I did not want to walk another 18 miles.

I mean it works, in a heroic fashion, but I prefer to stick to 8 to 12 miles covered in a day by a party, with packs, stopping at small hamlets for news, having encounters (combat or otherwise), and breaking out their own journals and maps to keep them current.

[Shadekeep]

Originally Posted by Terquem

A lot of people use the "15 to 18 miles in a day" - travel paradigm for adventurers on foot. I suppose it is alright. I usually don't, only because I have walked 18 miles in one day and believe me, the next day I did not want to walk another 18 miles.

I mean it works, in a heroic fashion, but I prefer to stick to 8 to 12 miles covered in a day by a party, with packs, stopping at small hamlets for news, having encounters (combat or otherwise), and breaking out their own journals and maps to keep them current.

Thanks for the input, very useful. Sounds like my 2-mile hexes are okay then, since the party would average 6-10 miles a day, or 12 if they pushed through the whole day and night. This is often difficult terrain too, plus there will be encounters. I will need to think more about the 15-mile hexes, possibly they just consume a whole day and night to travel, so no need for a time tracker.

[Terquem]

Also, my opinion on night travel

As modern folk we take it for granted that we can travel "through the night" but before the invention of electricity, and other modern conveniences, travel "through the night" was rare

You could not possibly travel through the night if the moon was waning or waxing a few days either side of the new moon. You might carry a torch, or a lantern, but you would not be able to see important landmarks that keep you on the right path. Traveling when there was moon light was risky, just a few clouds and you had the same problem. Overland travel at night, even with a compass, means taking on certain high risks, walking into a swamp, walking up to a ridge line either straight up or down, and others.

One morning, while the sun was rising but not above the horizon and there was considerable fog, my wife and I were walking along the southern coast of Ireland near Ballinspittle and we were warned to keep our eyes on the ground and sure enough we walked right up to a crack in the ground that was forty feet above the sea.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

Gygax's "Standard" wasn't kept. Observed more in the breach. As in, rejected by the industry. Not even within TSR, not even himself 5 years later. That's why you're way off base.

It fell into disuse because the industry opted to format settings like a Travelogue rather than the terse numbered lists of Judges Guild and Traveller.

[Shadekeep]

Originally Posted by Terquem

Also, my opinion on night travel

You raise further good points and I largely discourage night travel within my proposed settings. That time should be for sleep, recovery, and in general there are just too many hazards with travel at night. Characters who insist on traveling at night will run the risk of more dangerous and hazardous encounter events in that period. There should also be a penalty leveled for too much consecutive travel without sufficient rest periods. The one-day-and-night-per-hex rule on my larger scale map basically enforces that, saying that such rest periods are an implicit part of the overall travel time.

[guymc]

Originally Posted by Terquem

I guess I just don't understand and I am "off base" because how can you draw a room and say that from one wall to the opposite wall it is three hexes, and say that those hexes are 4 feet across, then draw another map of the same room shown at a different scale that has one hex fit between the walls and that hex is 9 feet across and say that that one hex is equal to three of the other hexes

you are literally saying 9=12

I don't want to start an argument, because I am just a "map nerd"

but making objects fit on a map is important to me.

Trust me! ;-)

Seriously, all you need to worry about is the tactical map at 1 hex = 4 feet. Your other scales are just to show you progress through the labyrinth and overland. Tactical details won't appear on them.

Think of the tactical map as a drawing of the contents of one room of your house. When you expand to look at a floor plan, it doesn't matter where the things in that room are, or what scale they happen to be. When you look at a map of your neighborhood, it doesn't show where your dresser is placed.