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Old 08-13-2018, 10:56 AM   #41
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength

I really like the idea about weapons that can grow with ST.

But I would rather make it simpler and more complex than David's idea.

State One damage series for a standard 1h weapon with out features.

Then you make a list of advantages, like 1 penalty for the enemy to adjDX for a parry ability. OR A long weapon that get first strike and jab ability, and bonus 1d6 damage for charge. OR throwable. OR disadvantage Clumsy that can only be used for attack every other turn, OR two handed, OR Versatile - both 1h and 2h, OR...

The price for each advantage and disadvantage should be 0.5 or 1 or maybe even 1.5 damage. So a weapon combo like Trident and net could have something like this:
Weapon combo - 1 talent for both but Peculiar weapons.
Net: Left hand weapon.
Net: Entangle ability.
Net: Throwable.
Net: Clumsy.
Trident: Long (first strike and jab)
Trident: Charge.
Trident: Three pronged (A disad, armor counts twice).
Trident: Throwable.

A short sword:
Short (Can be used in HTH including crowded shield wall).
Parry (-1 adjDX for enemy.)
Fencing weapon (Can be used for Fencing, maybe)

Then we present a list like the one in the book with a bunch of example weapons (as close to the current weapon list we can get). And put on another generic pain in the ass 0.5 advantage for those who want to make their own variations (so not everyone wants to make special weapons all the time).

The system for making magic items is very complex, but works. And you don't have that many different magic items on a character. And a unique weapon would be the same. And if the player/GM can't come up with a historical weapon that have the right property mix, either invent it, call it a normal weapon used with a special combat style or disallow it.

And if you have an ST damage ladder for base damage, then it would be easy to say that a low ST weapon used by a stronger fighter do the average base damage between them rounded down. A ST 10 weapon in the hands of a ST 14 warrior would do ST12.5 damage. Rounded down to ST12, if we don't have half steps already in the ST table. And then you put on all the ads/disads of the weapon and adjust the damage. But basically just two steps up on the damage scale which should be about +2 damage.

This means you could find a shortsword with a basket with increased parry value but no fencing capabilities or a slightly longer but thin sword that can't be used in HTH but instead can do armor piercing, or has a triangular shape for bleeding wounds, or is extra fast and has first strike or built in quick draw, or just a little more damage than the "normal" one. The variations would be endless both in the form, the historical names and how the weapons is used. It would explain the many different schools of fencing - they all added or removed one or two ads/disads from the "normal" rapier. Even unarmed "Fist" could use the same system.

Maybe not for the basig TFT rules, but it would be great to make, play test and simulate a version for a splat book. :-D
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Old 08-13-2018, 04:54 PM   #42
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
The price for each advantage and disadvantage should be 0.5 or 1 or maybe even 1.5 damage.
This is mostly what I'm doing, but instead of charging a fixed price I'm taking a percentage. The problem with a fixed price model is that reducing a weapon's damage by 1 point is a big deal at ST 10 but at ST 15 it's small change. So strong characters all end up using fancy weapons while low ST characters use the damage maximisers, which is odd.

There are also other differences: a fixed list of historical weapons versus a make your own weapon system, etc.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:15 AM   #43
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
This is mostly what I'm doing, but instead of charging a fixed price I'm taking a percentage. The problem with a fixed price model is that reducing a weapon's damage by 1 point is a big deal at ST 10 but at ST 15 it's small change. So strong characters all end up using fancy weapons while low ST characters use the damage maximisers, which is odd.

There are also other differences: a fixed list of historical weapons versus a make your own weapon system, etc.
Not completely true about the Low vs high ST weapons and %-based penalties. The system is on a bell curve and in simulations it is more about where on the power level scale you are. So damage, DX penalties for opponents, armor piercing, bonus DX for you etc mostly evens out. Incredibly well actually.

So the only reasons for a %-based penalty would be to counter a %-based advantage. Like a charge with double damage compared to a charge with +1d6 damage. And maybe new capabilities like jab or throwable, that might get you 10% more attacks over all in actual combat. But most of those can be estimated like this; cost .5 if base damage is 1die, cost 1.0 if base damage is 2d and cost 1.5 if it is 3d6. So you still can use a simple system instead of mixing in % values and special tables or formulas to calculate damage. (I kind of dislike tables so that might be one reason for me disagreeing). :-)
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:58 PM   #44
Anomylous
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength

I'm all for the idea of more ST, more damage, even with the same weapon. It definitely passes the "verisimilitude" sniff test. At some point though, seems like you'd hit diminishing returns - after all, when you've driven your rapier clear through someone and out the other side, you've done about all the damage you can do. So, maybe each weapon type could have a minimum ST, below which you're taking a DX penalty to use it, and a maximum ST, above which more ST doesn't get you any more damage and it's time to upgrade.

That would expand the Weapons Table considerably (listing a range of damages at various ST levels, instead of one damage per weapon), but I don't think it would make gameplay or character generation much more complicated - look up the damage done by a given figure with a given weapon once, note it down, you're good to go.

Bows are kind of a special case, though, and at the risk of going even further off topic, I'm going to get into that here:

The damage done by any given bow will be pretty much a constant (determined by the bow's draw weight), so you DEFINITELY want a bow that fits your ST exactly. Using a lighter bow will do less damage, regardless of your ST. You might be able to use a bow a point too heavy for you, and it will do more damage, but at a significant DX penalty. 2 points too heavy and you might not even be able to draw the thing. Also, a given style of bow can be made at a wide variety of draw weights. I happen to own a longbow with a 25lb draw weight - that's probably about ST 5 or 6.

So, a more "realistic" approach to bows might be to just have a table, this is how much damage a bow does if made for a ST 8, 9, 10... archer, and then have variations for different styles of bow, maybe something like:

SHORT BOW: The "standard" hunter's bow.

LONG BOW: Taller than its wielder. +1 DX to hit with it, -2 to MA because it's awkward to carry.

HORSE BOW: can be used while mounted, more expensive due to use of laminated horn etc. in its construction

...Actually, bows aren't really a special case under this system now I think of it, each bow just has a 1-point-wide optimum ST range, rather than the maybe 4 to 6 point range I was thinking of for other weapons.

Also, I think this whole idea is basically a dumbed-down version of what others are suggesting, so forgive me for being redundant...
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:05 PM   #45
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength

As far as max damage for a melee weapon is concerned, I sort of imagine an ST 15 short sword might be bigger than an ST 10 short sword, and therefore make a bigger hole. But yes, there probably are some diminishing returns.

I agree that if this system is applied to melee weapons it should also apply to bows. In that case we definitely assume the bow is getting bigger as the user's strength rises. Making longbows, or even bows generally, need, say, 4/DX to hit is I think on the menu for a system like this. And/or they might need an extra die or two to hit when in two shots a turn mode.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:27 PM   #46
Helborn
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength

One aspect of two-handed weapons is that they are LARGE. Large means unwieldy, requiring additional stabilization in the form of two hands. Great strength may allow you to pick something up which is heavier but not allow you to wield it any better. The +10 ST reflected that unwieldiness very well. Neither +3 nor +5 reflects it at all. Most of all it is unrealistic - even in fantasy literature. A 6' sword swung by a 6' individual has very limited arcs available - the rest of the time it hits the ground or surrounding objects.

The same problem occurs with any weapon. There are diminishing results from greater strength. At a certain level you break the weapon rather than cause more damage or you "blowthrough" - cause the weapon to exit out the back of the opponent without much additional damage. Most medieval damage was caused either by a) the sharpness of the edge (Damascus swords) or b) the strength of the steel bar (broadsword, mace, etc.). ST can only affect "b". I would assume that the FINE designation is an improvement in "a". Either should be limited in additional damage it can cause. I would suggest that after +5 ST, instead of increasing damage, it should be decreased as blowthrough becomes a real possibility.

I think that all characters should be limited by their base ST as to how much damage they can cause, no matter what weapon they are using Hobbits, starting with ST 4, should not be able to do more than 1-1 damage (ST 8 or 2x base) Humans should not be able to do more than 3+1 (ST 16 or 2x base), etc.

Regarding horsemanship: great ST is fine when you're jumping onto a wild horse or one that does not know you and it takes off at a full gallop. It is of no use with a trained mount. And it is of no use when you are trying to do anything else besides hang on...
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:20 PM   #47
Anomylous
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength

Quote:
I sort of imagine an ST 15 short sword might be bigger than an ST 10 short sword, and therefore make a bigger hole.
I was actually imagining it was the same exact sword, but a stronger fighter can drive it harder and do more damage. Maybe that's not how swords actually work, but players would certainly like that interpretation, because it would mean that they'd be able to wield any enchanted short sword they might happen upon for damage appropriate to their actual ST...
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:57 AM   #48
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength - bonus damage with weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anomylous View Post
I'm all for the idea of more ST, more damage, even with the same weapon. It definitely passes the "verisimilitude" sniff test. At some point though, seems like you'd hit diminishing returns ...
Hi Anomylous, everyone.

In my campaign for every 2 ST you are below the minimum to wield the weapon you are at -1 DX, and for every ST you are below the minimum ST to wield the weapons you are at -1 damage.

If you are 1 stronger you do +1 damage.
If you are 2 more stronger than that, you do +2 damage.
If you are 3 more stronger than that, you do +3 damage.
If you are 4 more stronger than that, you do +4 damage, etc.

Basically it is an arithmetic series.

Being a ST or 3 over the minimum ST of the weapon gives you a small bonus, but that bonus gets less and less very quickly. You rapidly reach the point of diminishing returns.

This is likely too complex for new TFT, (just use the right sized weapon), but it is well playtested and works well.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:01 AM   #49
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength

There is no 'correct' answer here, but I prefer a ruling that maintains a reason to use a weapon appropriate to your ST. If you gain 1 point of damage per 1 point of excess ST, then you do the same damage with all weapons (or, rather, all weapons in a given category). If that is what you are after it's fine with me, but I like to retain a reason for someone strong to seek out weapons that require high ST, as these will let them lead with their strength (as it were). A sort of middle-of-the-road rule that accomplishes this is: +1 damage per full 2 points of excess ST, CAPPED at twice the base damage for that weapon.

(emphasized in all caps both because it is the word 'capped' and because previous posters in this thread missed this point and argued I was suggesting you could do unlimited damage with a rapier or something. I'm not. If your ST is 50 you still never do more than 2d with a rapier).
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:03 AM   #50
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Advantages of Great Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
... If you gain 1 point of damage per 1 point of excess ST, then you do the same damage with all weapons (or, rather, all weapons in a given category). ...
Yes, and worse, the heavier weapons are worse choices than the lighter ones, because they weigh more and start requiring two hands.

ST 14: a mace, military pick, or morningstar would all do 2d+2, and so would a 2-handed great hammer. Not only is the mace lightest and cheapest for the same damage, it only requires one hand and is throwable.

Rick also uses a rewritten weapon table in his campaign, though, which may mitigate this problem, but otherwise I'd say if you just give +1 damage per ST with the standard TFT weapons, you mostly remove the value of using larger weapons.
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