[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples

[Icelander]

I'm really spoiled from knowing GURPS rules well enough not to have to worry about it during the average session, so when a supplement that changes enough for me to be unable to wing things comes out, I am helpless. Well, at least lazy.

I understand the principle of Control Points replacing the flat -4 grappling penalty well enough. But I'm hazy on how things work in play.

So, to begin with, how will this affect Sir Michael Carragher, the primary warrior of my long-running fantasy game? His most important styles include Longsword Fighting, Master of Defence Training and Combat Wrestling. Mickey is a Weapon Master with ST 20, DX 14 and HT 15, with Experienced* Talent 4 and skill 24/DX+10 in Broadsword and Two-Handed Sword, skill 25/DX+11 in Brawling and Wrestling, skill 19/DX+5 in Judo and around skill 22/DX+8 in a lot of other weapons. He has the Armed Grapple technique at full skill for Two-Handed Sword and Staff; as well as Sweep at full skill for Two-Handed Sword.

From what I can gather, he has a Trained ST 30 with Wrestling and Trained ST 28 with Two-Handed Sword. With most other grappling weapons, except sticks, he has Trained ST 26, but with most sticks he's Trained ST 28 and those that can be used with Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword skill are Trained ST 30.

This means that he inflicts 3d CP unarmed, 3d+5 with a two-handed sword, 3d+6 with a Reach 2 stick used with two-handed sword skill and 2d+6 with most weapons, 3d+5 with most sticks.

Am I doing that correctly?

*Affects all combat skills.

[DouglasCole]

Before I answer, have you read all the TG stuff on my blog? Go to The Grappling Mat section for max efficiency.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Before I answer, have you read all the TG stuff on my blog? Go to The Grappling Mat section for max efficiency.

I have not. Edit: Well, now I have.

Evidently, I need Pyramid 3 /#61.

I'm also fairly confused about when Sir Michael can use the +2 to +6 his awesome BL gives him for wrestling with human-scale foes. If he's standing and Sweeps someone with his sword, does either party use the Grappling Encumbrance Modifier (assuming both have a positive modifier relative to their current foe)?

[Icelander]

Let's take a hypothetical opponent in the foot lists as an example. Say a 200 lbs. ST 15 knight wearing 50 lbs. of plate harness and carrying a pollax, rondel, poniard and sword, for ca 65 lbs. of encumbrance.

Say he's a reasonably skilled heroic knight with DX+6 in most of his primary skills, for a final score of 18 or so. That makes him dangerous to most people, but not really a worthy foe for Sir Michael.

Now, if Sir Michael is wearing arms and armour of ca 65 lbs. of his own, his 250 lbs. of heroic muscle makes him a total of 315 lbs. for the other knight to handle. That means that if they grapple, the other knight is at -1 for grappling weight modifier.

Sir Michael, however, would be at +5, because the 200+65 lbs. foe is still below 3.5 of his BL.

If the other knight tries to Sweep Sir Michael without grappling him first, does either number modify the Sweep roll?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I have not. Edit: Well, now I have.

Evidently, I need Pyramid 3 /#61.

Well, I certainly think so. :-)

I'm also fairly confused about when Sir Michael can use the +2 to +6 his awesome BL gives him for wrestling with human-scale foes. If he's standing and Sweeps someone with his sword, does either party use the Grappling Encumbrance Modifier (assuming both have a positive modifier relative to their current foe)?

Looking at it, it's an unfortunate double-reference. The Grappling Encumbrance thing points to p. 9, which in turn points to p. 20: Strength as a Proxy for Mass.

That's the canonical list of things where you're using skill to move mass around, and therefore where the Grappling Encumbrance Modifier applies. Sweep is on the list:

• Bear Hug (p. 34), though here ST is a proxy for bulk more
than mass.
• Change Position (p. 35).
• Force Posture Change (p. 37).
• Judo Throw (p. 39).
• Pickup (p. 24), including those that lead off a Backbreaker
(p. 41) or Piledriver (p. 42).
• Shoving People Around (p. 25).
• Sweep (p. 40).
• Throws from Locks (p. 25).

Anything on this list benefits from the attacker being big; the encumbrance bonuses or penalties are applied for both fighters. While it seems like it might be a good idea to just use a relative modifier, there are many cases where you need/want to be strong and skilled to do something, and not only does margin of victory matter, but also whether or not you make the skill roll in an absolute sense.

This will be more important for weak guys trying to shove each other around. The example on p. 9 has both fighters dealing with -6 and -7 penalties to mass-based moves, so they will need to earn and spend significant CP to avoid failing rolls based on skill.

This is a great place to point out that things like Wrench Limb and Force Posture Change (and others as denoted on p. 11) only require relative success (win by more, or fail by less, than your foe), which makes them ideal when operating at a penalty. This explicit list supersedes any interpretation required when looking at the phrase "defaults to ST" (for example, you don't default FPC to ST, but you may roll against it).

If you don't like this ("No, in my games, you must always make your roll as well as win the Contest!") more power to you!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Looking at it, it's an unfortunate double-reference. The Grappling Encumbrance thing points to p. 9, which in turn points to p. 20: Strength as a Proxy for Mass.

That's the canonical list of things where you're using skill to move mass around, and therefore where the Grappling Encumbrance Modifier applies. Sweep is on the list:

I know Sweep is on the list, but from 'Weight Advantage' on p. 9, it seems as if neither one of two standing fighters has used Change Position to bring his weight to bear, the grappling encumbrance modifier doesn't apply. But the text is not explicit enough for me to be certain that this is the intended reading of the rule.

If that is not the intent of the rule and the modifier applies to any use of Sweep, regardless of whether or not the opponents are actually in a grapple and whether or not either of them has successfully brought his weight to bear, then can you spell out for me what the benefits of using Change Position to bring your weight to bear are? Just that you don't suffer any penalties and your foe loses any bonus?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If the other knight tries to Sweep Sir Michael without grappling him first, does either number modify the Sweep roll?

I'd say they both apply. Sir Michael gets his bonuses because he's just that much stronger than his foe's weight. He's effectively like a normal guy sweeping a 70-lb boy. That's going to be pretty effective.

His foe, strong as he is, is struggling against a foe that is slightly heavier. He's going to have issues, thus the -1. Of course, the training bonus of Michael's foe, if it's +1 or more, will cancel this out (p. 8, under Grappling Weight Modifier), so he's likely fighting Michael at no penalty.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If that is not the intent of the rule and the modifier applies to any use of Sweep, regardless of whether or not the opponents are actually in a grapple and whether or not either of them has successfully brought his weight to bear, then can you spell out for me what the benefits of using Change Position to bring your weight to bear are? Just that you don't suffer any penalties and your foe loses any bonus?

This is in there in case it's unclear what's going on and a player wants to force it. It's for things like side mount, or two grapplers that have found each other both lying down, and it's not clear from context who's supposed to be on top.


It's really to make a game-mechanical basis for an adjudication of "who's on top." If you take me down, are you automatically "on top" of me (and thus benefit from the bonus, and I lose any I have for being beneath you)? Maybe, maybe not. This says "accept a -4 to your Change Position roll, and you get to claim that weight advantage."

I'd use it, for example, to add a mass-based factor to a joint lock - notably absent from the list on p. 20.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I'd say they both apply. Sir Michael gets his bonuses because he's just that much stronger than his foe's weight. He's effectively like a normal guy sweeping a 70-lb boy. That's going to be pretty effective.

This will please Tobbi, the player, to no end. I predict an endless succession of Sweeps*.

The Grappling Encumbrance Modifier does not affect rolls to hit with Sweep, though, does it? Just the Contest for effects, correct?

*Which will at least make a change from the previous endless succession of chopping off legs or hacking the torso. ;)

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

His foe, strong as he is, is struggling against a foe that is slightly heavier. He's going to have issues, thus the -1. Of course, the training bonus of Michael's foe, if it's +1 or more, will cancel this out (p. 8, under Grappling Weight Modifier), so he's likely fighting Michael at no penalty.

Yes, I noted that just after I posted. Of course the Training Bonus for Wrestling at DX+6 (which is +3, because it uses the Fast progression even for resisting Sweep, normally not a huge part of Wrestling, right?) will reduce the penalty down to 0 for the other knight.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

This will please Tobbi, the player, to no end. I predict an endless succession of Sweeps*.

The Grappling Encumbrance Modifier does not affect rolls to hit with Sweep, though, does it? Just the Contest for effects, correct?

*Which will at least make a change from the previous endless succession of chopping off legs or hacking the torso. ;)

Correct, it does not impact the hit rolls. Strength only applies after you successfully do whatever it is you want to do.

If he's a striker too, he'll also like the Destabilization Strike from Pyramid #3/61.