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Old 11-20-2008, 07:49 AM   #1
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Using inanimate object hit point rules as written

Hello Folks,
Dumb question time. I noted that Icelander was writing up a few ships, for which I have no issue with one way or another. The question that hit me a few hours ago is this:

Are sailing ship hulls more or less resilient than shields? If the answer is More resilient, then we have a problem. If you answer less resilient, then - no big issue that I can see.

Lets look at the stats given on page 287 of GURPS BASIC SET: CHARACTERS.

Light shield: 2 lbs
Small shield: 8 lbs
Medium shield: 15 lbs
Large Shield: 25 lbs

Now, Thickness of a shield is anyone's guess, but lets call it 1/4" thickness for some of those - just for reference points.

Now, lets look at page 558 of GURPS BASIC: CAMPAIGNS. There, we have a set of tables for determining hit points based on the weight of the object. Homogenous/Diffuse gets the larger number of hit points for the object's weight, while unliving/machine gets half the value given for Homogenous/Diffuse.

So, what does page 558 tell us the hp value of a 2 lb object should be? 10 HP. What does the table on page 287 tell us? DR 5, 20 HP. This is TWICE the hitpoints for the best category of calculated hit points. A Large Shield at a weight of 25 lbs will be treated as if 27 lbs, with a HP value of 24 for Homogenous/Diffuse. GURPS stats on the shield is DR 9, 60 HP.


Granted, the rules state that the GM may alter the hit points if he thinks the objects are more frail or tougher than usual, but that begs the question...

Why do shields get at least 2x the hp value of Homogenus/Diffuse, while ships and other things get less? Maybe Homogenous hit points should be calculated not as 8x cube root of the object's weight as listed in GURPS CAMPAIGNS, but should be listed as 16 x cube root of the object's weight?

Either that, or the shields themselves should have half the hit points that they are currently listed as being?
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: Using inanimate object hit point rules as written

IIRC the consensus was that shields are too tough in GURPS.
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:05 AM   #3
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Default Re: Using inanimate object hit point rules as written

Tried making arguments using the structural tables....had some success

See here.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=47660

It seems that most of the DR and HP from shields actually comes not from the material, but from the technology used to make them.

Keep in mind that I am using 1.5 " thick shields. I know now that thats a bit to thick and I should be shooting for something a little closer to 1" or .5" to bring it inline with what players expect.

I am currently wokring on trying to build a shield 'from scratch' and it may solve a few issues.

The basic Idea is this.

By starting out with appropriate thickness of wood DR and HP,
can I apply tech modifiers that will finish out at the appropriate DR and HP for a shield?

Can I make them consistent across sizes?

For a Typical Wooden Viking style shield this might go something like this
So for a Medium shield of DR:7 HP:40
Material
Material - 1/2" Wood Area of 850 squin- DR:1 - HP:8
Anti Splinter Tech
Facing - Leather or thin metal Area 850 squin- DR:2 - HP:7
Edging - Leather or thin metal - DR:2 - HP: 7
Structural Reinforcement Tech
Banding - Iron/Bronze - DR:2 - HP:18

Note: I presume that shields are faced based on data From Low tech that says that MEtal Faced wooden shield is the standard for wooden shield.
LT(117)

Final Total - DR:7 - HP:40

For a Typical Mediveal Wooden Laminate Shield with 3 layers
Material
Material - 3x3/16" layers of Wood 850 SqIn- DR:.3 - HP:3 ea
Tech
Layering - with adhesive - DR:3- HP:21
Facing - Leather or thin metal Area 850 squin- DR:1 - HP:5
Edging - Leather or thin metal - DR:1 - HP:5
Curvature - DR:1 - HP:0

Final Total - DR:7 - HP:40

As I present these numbers I presume that DR is the 'elastic limit' for damage and HP is the 'Liftime' of the shield under conditions which exceed DR.

If this logic leads me to reasonable numbers, that will extend across sizes and types, then the shield data in Charachters may be just fine.

Nymdok

Last edited by Nymdok; 11-20-2008 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:13 PM   #4
hal
 
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Default Re: Using inanimate object hit point rules as written

What I find interesting is that the HP values for shields as evidenced by Nymdok's response would appear to be "Valid", which then implies that the rules as given for vehicles and/or other objects is flawed. You can't have it both ways. Either the shields are wrong and the formula is right, or the formula is right and the shields are wrong.

If by saying that the "technology" enters into the picture, then the approach is equally valid for those things made of wood that incorporate technological innovations such as buttressing and curving of the timbers etc - making the ship better able to withstand damage.

As I stated, I noted that one individual is trying to determine GURPS 4e stats based on the formula given for hit points, only to determine that even GURPS 4e doesn't follow the reasoning/rules as written itself. When the shields themselves have hit point values that range between 2 and 2.5 times what the rules suggest - then something doesn't make sense.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:20 PM   #5
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Default Shields too tough?

Remember that any shield is on a flexible mount -- the human arm.

There will be some give when hit -- this disperses some of the impact energy.

Finally, unless the shield-bearer is an utter dunce, he/she is going to try to position the shield so that the enemy's weapon will hit it at an angle, causing the weapon to glance off at least somewhat.

If you nailed a shield to a wall then pounded on it yes, it would come apart quickly. Used by a skilled person it would, I suspect, last a great deal longer.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:43 PM   #6
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Default Re: Using inanimate object hit point rules as written

The same could be said about a ship's walls that have some flexibility between the supports - making it more springy, and thus take more "real damage" than might otherwise occur elsewhere on the ship.

Before, hit points in D&D represented "luck" in addition to actual ability to take physical damage. This is why a fighter could have insane number of hit points as they leveled up. Or so the "explanation" would have us believe ;)

If that is what hit points are degenerating into in GURPS 4e, then so be it.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: Using inanimate object hit point rules as written

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal
What I find interesting is that the HP values for shields as evidenced by Nymdok's response would appear to be "Valid", which then implies that the rules as given for vehicles and/or other objects is flawed. You can't have it both ways. Either the shields are wrong and the formula is right, or the formula is right and the shields are wrong.
Again, its just an Idea Im toying with. I got those values by getting HP and DR from thickness for a 10 sqft area as for structures in Campaigns, then reducing the HP to match the area covered (More material = more HP).

I dont know what the thicknes of a ships hull is. I dont know how much of that has to do with the density of the wood normally used to make ships. I havent even BEGUN to toy with a Grand Unified Theroy of All things Wooden. Let me prove out the shield concept first, then we'll see how far I can extend it.

Either way, saying 'it has to be one way or the other' at this point seems a little immediate and premature.

Nymdok
Whyd it have to be wood....why couldnt it be steel? I have a background in metallurgy not woodworking....
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: Using inanimate object hit point rules as written

Shields are too tough, that's all there is to it. There's enough anecdotal evidence from historical sources that describe shields being penetrated by pikes, spears and arrows, all weapons that lack the ability to do much damage. Then there's the Falx and Great Axes. Then again, Kromm has goen on the record and said that shields were given those high HP so that in a typical dungeon fantasy game wouldn't be bogged down with shields being busted up.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: Using inanimate object hit point rules as written

I think part of the difference is reflected in the fact that the DR/HP stats for shields are meant to be used with the Optional Damage to Shields Rule. THis rule applies to incidental damage which is inflicted upon the item when some one is actually trying to inflict damage upon the person using it. When you look at the DR and HP of a ship you're looking at how the vessel withstands damage intended specifically to destroy it - injury to crew in this case is incidental. Essentially, the damage of a weapon which was stopped by a shield, while "hitting it squarely" is still not really as effective as the damage a person (their weapon rather,) would do to the shield if *deliberately attacking the shield with the intention of destroying it," in which case any over damage to the person using the shield is incidental (covered by overpenetration rules). If someone were to expressly attack a shield in order to destroy it then I would use the values on page 558 - the values in the equipment tables really are only intended to reflect how much incidental wear and tear a shield can take before it ceases to be useful and has to be replaced; seeking a balance between "replace after every battle" and virtually indestructible gear.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: Using inanimate object hit point rules as written

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snargash Moonclaw
I think part of the difference is reflected in the fact that the DR/HP stats for shields are meant to be used with the Optional Damage to Shields Rule. THis rule applies to incidental damage which is inflicted upon the item when some one is actually trying to inflict damage upon the person using it. ....
Essentially, the damage of a weapon which was stopped by a shield, while "hitting it squarely" is still not really as effective as the damage a person (their weapon rather,) would do to the shield if *deliberately attacking the shield with the intention of destroying it," .... If someone were to expressly attack a shield in order to destroy it then I would use the values on page 558 - the values in the equipment tables really are only intended to reflect how much incidental wear and tear a shield can take before it ceases to be useful and has to be replaced.
Im not really comfortable with that interpretation. Hitting it squarely and hitting it with the intent to destroy it seem like the same thing to me. As for the ability to deflect the blow as opposed to meeting it head on, I think that falls under the shield skill and is represented in the probability.

For Example
Someone with a shield skill of 10 using a medium shield needs a 10 to block and a roll of 9 or 10 means its caught on the shield wheras an 8 or less means its deflected skillfully.

In this case that means its about 50-50.
Odds of rolling 8 or less 25.9%
Odds of rolling 9 plus odds of roling 10 = 11.6 + 12.5 = 24.1%

So for an average shield skill the Shield takes the lick 50% of the times it is effective.

Lets consider a higher skill of 18 which gets us 9+3+2(DB) and we have 14 to block and 13 or 14 is a square shield hit.

Odds of roling 12 or less = 74%
Odds of rolling 13 or 14 = 9.8+7.0 = 17%
So only about 1 in 5 hits land squarely enough to damage the shield.

Finally lets consider a most pathetic shield skill of 4 (I dont event know how youd get one this low, but we need it to say we checked the whole curve)
Block roll = 2+3+2(DB) =7 with a 6 or 7 hitting the shield squarely.
Odds of rolling 5 or less = 2.8 percent
Odds of rolling 6 + odds of rolling 7 = 4.6+6.9 = 11.5 %
Meaning that if this poor soul IS fortuante enought to block with the shield, it will get damaged 76% of the time!

Nymdok
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