11-03-2012, 09:40 PM | #21 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: [3e] F-111
The number you want to correlate to sustained maneuverability is probably "wing loading". An instantaneous G-rating measures airframe strength, but what matters is how fast the airplane loses its energy as it maneuvers. Two planes might both pull 6G, but the one with higher wing loading is losing more energy to do so. The opposing factor is the power of the engines, which add energy to the plane. Given two planes with the same wing loading, the one with more powerful engines will be able to keep up the dogfighting longer.
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11-04-2012, 01:27 AM | #22 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: [3e] F-111
In RL, yes. In VE2 terms at TL7 Radical Stealth adds $ 3,000 per sf. Using Advanced instead of Expensive Heavy Superior Streamlined materials adds $ 24,000 per sf.
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11-04-2012, 01:57 AM | #23 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: [3e] F-111
I forgot: Radical Stealth is 4 lb per sf. Changing materials as above saves 3.375 lb per sf. So such a cost increase still means taking a small hit to performance.
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11-04-2012, 03:21 AM | #24 |
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Re: [3e] F-111
For aircraft there are two G-limits. The first is what we would normally think of, the maximum safe limit. But there is another and this other limit comes into play when the maximum safe limit is exceeded. This is normally around 11Gs but stating it that way can be misleading. If the maximum safe limit is 9Gs and you go to 10Gs then the original 11G excess limit becomes 10Gs, do it again and the excess limit becomes 9Gs, etc. If the excess limit ever hits 0Gs the airframe is no longer safe and is should be removed and scrapped or put on display.
I worked avionics in the USAF but this was covered in a maintenance briefinfor some reason I can no longer remember. As far as the FB-111 (bad designation, it should have been BF-111) if I remember rightly it had completely different engines as did the EF-111. The FB-111 did not have the range to perform its mission and the B-52s were given priority for tankers so the FB-111s were considered by the aircrew to be suicide machines, at least in the 380th BW(M). I hated working on that bird.
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The World's Tallest Dwarf |
11-04-2012, 07:15 AM | #25 |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: [3e] F-111
But the number he wants to transklate to Vehicle aMR is the max safe G-load. That's how the stat is defined in Vehicles.
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Fred Brackin |
11-04-2012, 09:39 AM | #26 |
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Re: [3e] F-111
I am curious as what you used to stat this.
Did you use Gurps Vehicle Builder for this aircraft? (or Gurps Vehicle Designer) or spreadsheet? If you used one of the computer programs, do you have a file you would be willing to share? Thanks, DT. |
11-04-2012, 01:57 PM | #27 |
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Re: [3e] F-111
As someone who has always been on the "yeah realism!" side of the GURPS debates, I just wanted to note that after a while the argument gets pointless, and this thread seems to have blown past that. There are usually many variations of aircraft depending on when it was made and upgraded, and all the fine details of how it performs and how that should be measured are useless if it goes beyond the resolution of the game.
Ultimately, the point should not be to precisely capture the F-111 in GURPS terminology. The point should be to get it close, and to make sure that it is reasonably balanced against everything else in the game. |
11-04-2012, 05:41 PM | #28 | |||
World Traveler in Training
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
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Re: [3e] F-111
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Still, stuff like this helps me get as close as possible down the road, so I'm glad for it.
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." -- Kierkegaard http://aerodrome.hamish.tripod.com Last edited by Phaelen Bleux; 11-04-2012 at 05:52 PM. |
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11-05-2012, 02:20 AM | #29 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: [3e] F-111
I did a couple of modern designs too (pen and paper and pocket calculator). Most were for an IST campaign and include some non-RL components, typically a rE-cell instead of an auxiliary power generator. But it might still be interesting for a rough comparison.
Here is my F-4E: McDonnell Douglas F-4E Phantom TL 7 Fighter Size+5 Body: 850 cf / 539 sf 2 High-Agility Wings: 105 cf / 268 sf Retractable Wheels: 42.5 cf / 74 sf Totals: 1,102.5 cf / 1,149 sf, Drag: 111.5*, Lift Area: 589.9 2x Normal Crewstation with Ejection Seat/G-seat/HUD, Mechanical Controls, Autopilot, 2x Precision Navigation Instruments, 2x LR-Com/Scrambler, Flightrecorder, GPS, IFF, Digital Vehicle Camera, F: Radar 45 miles / Scan 21, Adv Radar Detector, Adv Bombsight, 20mm Gatling from VE2, 640x SAPHE (WPS 0.4), RoF 100, 3dx7 (0.5) + 1d-2 (2d), ½: 1,500, Max: 6,100, Acc 15, 18,650 lb Hardpoints (under body: 4x510 semi-recessed for AIM-7, 1x 4,610, under wings: 6x 2,000), 12 hours limited life support (2x 6 h), Compact Fire Suppression, rE-cell, 2x 12,000 lb thrust Turbojet, Afterburner, 2,000 gallons self-sealing standard tanks, Refuelling Probe, Superior Streamlining, Sealed, DR 9 ExpMetal, HV Cheap Frame EWt: 30,357.4 lb, Fuel: 13,000 lb, Hardpoint payload: 18,650 lb, LWt: 62,500 lb Cargo/empty: 35.248 cf Cost: 2,462,343.4 $ Clean Configuration: aSpeed/Afterburner: 1,555 mph (Mach 2.04), aSpeed: 1,270 mph (Mach 1.67), cruiseSpeed: 735 mph (Mach 0.96) With 10 loaded Hardpoints: aSpeed/Afterburner: 1,345 mph (Mach 1.76), aSpeed: 1,095 mph (Mach 1.44), cruiseSpeed: 635 mph (Mach 0.83) Endurance with Internal Fuel: 37 minutes at aSpeed, 1 hour 51 min at cruiseSpeed aMR: 6 aAccel (Afterburner): 11 mph/s StallSpeed: 165 mph gAccel (Afterburner): 15 mph/s, gAccel: 12 mph/s, gDecel: 10 mph/s Takeoff Runway (Afterburner): 454 yards, Takeoff Runway: 568 yards, Landing Runway: 681 yards HT 10 / 1,617 Special Effect: semi-recessed hardpoints increase Drag by 1 if empty, only 2 if occupied Note that aMR is calculated for maximum weight, in an air-to-air role weight would be less, and aMR more. |
11-05-2012, 08:49 AM | #30 |
World Traveler in Training
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
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Re: [3e] F-111
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." -- Kierkegaard http://aerodrome.hamish.tripod.com |
Tags |
3rd edition, vehicle |
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