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Old 09-14-2009, 01:52 PM   #1
Michael Cule
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Default A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

I continue to fiddle with rejigging my GURPS Harn adaptation to 4e and the main thing that causes me difficulty is the Magic system.

On Harn Magic is (mostly) dominated by the Shek-Pavar. The Pavaric magical system divides magic into six Convocations or fields of magic which are arranged to oppose each other (material magic is opposed to mental, fire to cold and so on) in a circular arrangement and there is also the seventh type Grey Magic which provides access to Meta Magic and Gate Magics.

I'm not planning to use the standard GURPS MAGIC spell list but as in HARNMASTER to allow mages to create their own spells while providing a basic set of commonly known magic.

Now, how I plan to do this is to have individual master skills for each of the six Convocations plus Grey Magic, with individual spells being Techniques off those skills. In other words a variant of Ritual Magic. The Convocations don't default off Thaumatology (Pavaric) though it is a prerequisite for them.

My problem is this: can I have this sort of system when you can't actually cast spells at default? In other words (I think) a skill where the techniques aren't automatically accessible to anyone who knows the root skill but which have to be learned.

You see I have the difficulty that a mage who knows a spell is at an advantage over a mage who doesn't but if he doesn't have to put points into it to learn it at default then that advantage cannot be expressed in character points.

(I am sort of leaning to having the 'cast improvised magic' in there as an option. Perhaps with the proviso that if you cast a spell without any points in it any failure is going to count as a critical failure. But I want to see if I can work it so that option isn't in there as it isn't in the HARNMASTER description of the world.)
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:00 PM   #2
Dragondog
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Default Re: A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

As the GM, that is up to you. Though depending on the prerequisite count of interesting spells, it might be very expensive to buy the skills to levels where the spells become usable at default.
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:31 PM   #3
martinl
 
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Default Re: A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
My problem is this: can I have this sort of system when you can't actually cast spells at default? In other words (I think) a skill where the techniques aren't automatically accessible to anyone who knows the root skill but which have to be learned.
Requiring the characters to have at least 1 point in a technique before using it won't break GURPS. If you want to do it without stretching GURPS at all, make every spell a 'secret technique' unlocked by a perk. (This will allow default use, but only after 1 point is spent to unlock the spell.) This if fairly close to how the SP treat knowledge after all.

I would not allow spontaneous casting with Harn SP - that's not how they approach magic, as I see it.
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:49 PM   #4
Michael Cule
 
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Default Re: A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post
Requiring the characters to have at least 1 point in a technique before using it won't break GURPS. If you want to do it without stretching GURPS at all, make every spell a 'secret technique' unlocked by a perk. (This will allow default use, but only after 1 point is spent to unlock the spell.) This if fairly close to how the SP treat knowledge after all.

I would not allow spontaneous casting with Harn SP - that's not how they approach magic, as I see it.
Ah ha! I believe you have solved my problem! Many thanks!

Any other suggestions?
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:09 PM   #5
martinl
 
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Default Re: A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
Ah ha! I believe you have solved my problem! Many thanks!

Any other suggestions?
You're welcome.

As for other suggestions, I've considered porting Harn magic to GURPS before, and I recall several things if you're interested:

The three stat skill bases with mod for astronomical sign in HM were complex, but neat. It would not be hard to do the same in GURPS, and you could still test off other stats now and then as appropriate.

I'd port in Aura, or at least base magic off of Will (Or Will/Will/foo+AS) rather than IQ.

In HM psi is a sort of limited natural mental magic that spontaneously manifested now and then. Probably worth porting that in too.

The Pvaric code is a pretty important CoH. Violating it gets an enemy (if violation is known) or hefty secret.

You might also want o find Hal on these forums. He's been running GURPS Harn for ever...To be honest, I'm surprised he's not already posted on this thread.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinl View Post
You're welcome.

As for other suggestions, I've considered porting Harn magic to GURPS before, and I recall several things if you're interested:

The three stat skill bases with mod for astronomical sign in HM were complex, but neat. It would not be hard to do the same in GURPS, and you could still test off other stats now and then as appropriate.

I'd port in Aura, or at least base magic off of Will (Or Will/Will/foo+AS) rather than IQ.

In HM psi is a sort of limited natural mental magic that spontaneously manifested now and then. Probably worth porting that in too.

The Pvaric code is a pretty important CoH. Violating it gets an enemy (if violation is known) or hefty secret.

You might also want o find Hal on these forums. He's been running GURPS Harn for ever...To be honest, I'm surprised he's not already posted on this thread.
Sorry about that. I saw the post about 5 minutes ago, and started to discuss some of my thoughts on the matter, and then reconsidered thinking "What I think isn't all that important".

Lest you say "HEY!" let me explain why...

First - Harn's magic was never really defined back in the day when it was just Harn World. Then came the arrival of HARN MASTER 1st edition, and suddenly, things changed. From my perspective, and this is just one man's opinion mind you <g>, the Shek P'var overall, seem to be working off the premise that all magic is done more or less on a "re-invent the wheel" kind of thing. It seems to me that rather than have access to a library of spells, mages were expected to invent their own spells, and share it with their chantry. If they wanted to gain new spells at all, they had to get permission to do so, and only under exacting circumstances, could they gain the breadth and scope of spell casting that is seen in GURPS MAGIC itself (and I refer not to GURPS GRIMOIRE or GURPS MAGIC for 4e - but just plain ordinary GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition).

Now here is the problem - I do not like the ritual magic system suggested in GURPS 4e, nor in GURPS MAGIC for 4e. Having a spell prerequisite count that can go in excess of say, 5 to 10, defies the seeming normal "difficulty modifiers" already extant in GURPS outright. If something is VERY difficult to achieve, then it shouldn't have a -14 penalty, it should be more like -6.

But worse than that, is the Path magic system from GURPS VOODOO. While in theory it is nice, there are problems I saw as a GM from the getgo. Why spend points on individual paths, if one can just buy up one skill of Ritual Magic and have everything default from there?

For me, it would have made more sense to state from the beginning, that defaults may NEVER be higher than a relatively low number on 3d6. Nasty GM type that I am (ie believing it is best to curtail abuse from the start instead of inviting it and ruining a game), I'd rule that no skill from default can ever rise higher than a basic 8 or less on 3d6. An 8 or less on 3d6 is such that statistically speaking, you can get that result or lower on 3d6 some 25% of the time. This coincides pretty much with the opening skill mastery levels for various spells.

Now for the bad news. Improvisational magic requires not only that you have a GM who can handle it, but also a player who can produce it as well. Having a fast on his feet GM and a dull minded player makes for pretty dull magical elements in the campaign. Having a Dull minded GM and a creative player only results in a frustrated player who either gives up playing a mage, or gives up playing altogether. <sigh>
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:38 AM   #7
martinl
 
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Default Re: A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
From my perspective, and this is just one man's opinion mind you <g>, the Shek P'var overall, seem to be working off the premise that all magic is done more or less on a "re-invent the wheel" kind of thing. It seems to me that rather than have access to a library of spells, mages were expected to invent their own spells, and share it with their chantry. If they wanted to gain new spells at all, they had to get permission to do so, and only under exacting circumstances, could they gain the breadth and scope of spell casting that is seen in GURPS MAGIC itself (and I refer not to GURPS GRIMOIRE or GURPS MAGIC for 4e - but just plain ordinary GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition).
Yes. My take on it was something serious happened in the "Eldrich Era" (probably not a war) that made mages collectively decide to regulate their art like maniacs and stay the hell out of politics except at the very highest and most subtle levels. The details aren't really important (unless you want them to be), but the result is secretive mages who only share their art grudgingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Now here is the problem - I do not like the ritual magic system suggested in GURPS 4e, nor in GURPS MAGIC for 4e. Having a spell prerequisite count that can go in excess of say, 5 to 10, defies the seeming normal "difficulty modifiers" already extant in GURPS outright. If something is VERY difficult to achieve, then it shouldn't have a -14 penalty, it should be more like -6.

But worse than that, is the Path magic system from GURPS VOODOO. While in theory it is nice, there are problems I saw as a GM from the getgo. Why spend points on individual paths, if one can just buy up one skill of Ritual Magic and have everything default from there?
I think that "one skill per convocation, perk to gain access to spells/techniques" is a pretty decent model of the HM system. The required perk and role playing are a gatekeeper for over generalization. You can set the technique penalty at such a level that straight defaulting is acceptable for reasonably skilled mages (however you define that) and allow it to be bought up for spell specialists. Heck, the technique penalty could even be "circle*2" to maintain a direct link to HM spell difficulties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Now for the bad news. Improvisational magic requires not only that you have a GM who can handle it, but also a player who can produce it as well. Having a fast on his feet GM and a dull minded player makes for pretty dull magical elements in the campaign. Having a Dull minded GM and a creative player only results in a frustrated player who either gives up playing a mage, or gives up playing altogether. <sigh>
Well, as A posted earlier, I don't think on the fly improvisation fits Harnic SP. Spells are complex and counter-intuitive, even for experts, and require considerable research to get right.

Long term improvisation (for "you must create new magic" requirements) can be hand waved by stealing stuff and pretending it's new. One of the side effects of the SP's system of hoarding knowledge and requiring students to do research is that the "wheel" must be re-invented almost constantly, so this even fits with the setting.

All that said, if I ever run GURPS Harn, I'd be very tempted to nerf all forms of supernatural magic to be both subtle and slow. The Psi would all be stuff that might just be crazy people, the miracles would not be clearly distinguishable from morale and luck, and I'd modify the Shek Pvar into scholars with guild monopoly on understanding Earthmaster remnant tech and bizarre mystical quirks like historical alchemists. Then again, if I'm gonna mundanify things that much, I might consider running a straight historical...
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:31 AM   #8
Michael Cule
 
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Default Re: A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

I wasn't planning to do anything with the 'prerequisite-penalties' idea: that requires the pre-written list of spells from GURPS Magic and that's what I wanted to avoid here.

The penalty would be 1 per Circle and there would be +2 for your Primary Convocation, +1 for the Secondary, -1 for the Tertiary and -2 for the Diametric.

I was thinking of ommitting Magery entirely or perhaps of only allowing it to be to specific Convocations. You could work that under the heading of Astrological bonuses, perhaps or ommit the idea of Astrology entirely. I'm not yet certain if I want a talent in one convocation necessarily meaning a penalty in its Diametric.

I was planning on having the improvised spell thing purely as an option: how it would work would be if you don't have the perk that means you have successfully researched the spell any failure is going to be a critical failure and a natural 17 or 18 means you go direct to Total Release of the Principal of the Spell, a nasty Harnic thing which means the GM gets to improvise some Wild Magic based on the nature of the energy that went into the spell.

The psionic stuff from GURPS 4e can be ported to Harn fairly easily and directly. Religious magic I'm thinking would use something like Syntactic Magic or a variant on Threshold Magic. ("Have you overdrawn on your Piety credit with your god? Only one way to find out...")
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Old 09-15-2009, 12:52 PM   #9
hal
 
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Default Re: A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

In the end, the concept of "perk" cost per spell just doesn't sit right with me. The reason for this is the fact that each spell is essentially a skill, and that like any other skill, it starts its long difficult journey to mastery with one step taken at a time, and the first step being to have a desire to learn the spell itself. Perks don't really come across to me as "Skills", but that's just me.

When I look at GURPS as a game system, and look at Harn Master as a game system, I am struck by the fact that GURPS is less granular than is HARN MASTER. Certain design features of HARN MASTER do not translate well into GURPS without mangling GURPS beyond recognition. For example, AURA. This is a stat that describes to some extent, the psychic ability of a given individual. The problem here however, is that Aura and Magery are similiar in function, yet, dissimilar in execution. A mage could be built for example, upon a character with a 10 aura. A perfectly average individual with an aura of 10 and an IQ of 10, would have a skill opening base level of 10 x 2, or 20%

Contrast this with a mage whose IQ is 15 and Aura 18. The Opening Skill base value becomes (18x2+15)/3 or 17. Add a +2 bonus for astrological benefit - and the spell caster's opening skill base becomes 2x17 or 34%

20% on 3d6 is closest to a 7 or less on 3d6 (at 16% chance of success) versus a 34% being closest to 9 or less on 3d6. A character whose attributes are the perfect most best possible for a given convocation works out to be 18x2 (aura 18) plus 18 (aura) + 3 for astrological bonus - for a total of 21. SB becomes 2x20 or 42%, which is at best - closest to a 9 or less on 3d6 (at 37.5% chance of success).

Mind you, that's a mage with the best possible IQ and best possible Aura and best astrological bonus for his primary convocation.

So adapting spells for success chances based solely upon "probability of success" isn't neccessarily the best route to go.
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Old 09-15-2009, 01:21 PM   #10
hal
 
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Default Re: A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

Now, what are we trying to achieve with the Shek P'var concepts from Harn Master?

Are we trying to create a new 7 college ordering of spells?

Are we trying to recreate the game mechanics of the Shek P'var for use with GURPS?

Are we even trying to recreate the concept that the more skilled you are with the spell itself, the better its effects will be rather than just costing less fatigue?

Are we looking to avoid the "structure" of GURPS MAGIC for say, regular spells having a -1 penalty to spell casting for every 1 yard distance to target? Are we looking to enforce the -1 penalty per yard distance to target?

A lot of fiddling with all of this between GURPS MAGIC and HARNMASTER MAGIC (aka Shek P'var) will depend on the ultimate goal.

Me? I just find it easier to ignore the entire "structure" issue as had been originally intended with HARN WORLD. Harn World was intended to be game system neutral so that you could use D&D magic or RUNEQUEST magic, or TUNNELS & TROLLS magic, etc. and still have a game world to play in.

My suggestion overall?

Either:

A) Use GURPS Magic as is, but use the idea/concept of highly restricted access to spells and spell lists based on the fact that the mages voluntarily limit themselves to what they can study. As it is mostly a Teacher/Apprentice system for the most part, player characters should literally be highly limited in their initial spell selection in the first place.

B) Scrap the entire spell list from GURPS MAGIC and in its place, re-image all of the Shek P'var spells rewritten for use with GURPS game mechanics. Since there will be no "prerequisite system" in place as far as having all those annoying 20 useless spells just to have the one really useful spell the player wants, the GM can determine on their own, just what the actual requisites for studying a new spell might actually be. For example, have 6 different convocational ritual skills. One may not learn a convocational based skill in anything outside their primary convocation until their primary convocational skill is at 12+. Then, one can only learn first circle spells until they have a convocational skill of 12+. Second circle spells if their skill with a ritual convocation is at 14+, with every circle needing a skill level of 2*circle value plus 10 (or higher).

Now the Gm can control and limit which spells can be brought into play etc.

For me, it is far easier to use the first approach - use GURPS as is, and limit which spells are available, and do so using the Master/Apprentice approach. If they want FIREBALL as a spell, you as the NPC master mage, can simply say "No, I shall not teach you that spell, for you shall abuse it and bring down the wrath of the Kvikir upon us all." or "You may study the spell if you so desire, but only the chantry 30 days journey north of this one has it, go there to find a teacher." Or, if the player so desires to try and circumvent those restrictions, let them "research" the spells they desire and risk being declared renegade (as happened to a major NPC in Short, Nasty, and Brutish) ;)
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