Martial Arts: Celtic, Roman, Viking Swords

[David L Pulver]

Reading through Martial Arts, there's a "universal" shortsword but the description of broadsword refers only to a medieval "arming sword" while longsword refers to the late medieval bastard sword. But if broadsword is so relegated, I can't find any description of what the "proper generic term" or stats for (a) a Roman spatha or (b) a viking sword or (c) a Celtic sword.

My inclination is thrusting broadsword as well, but I'm not sure...

[SimonAce]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

Reading through Martial Arts, there's a "universal" shortsword but the description of broadsword refers only to a medieval "arming sword" while longsword refers to the late medieval bastard sword. But if broadsword is so relegated, I can't find any description of what the "proper generic term" or stats for (a) a Roman spatha or (b) a viking sword or (c) a Celtic sword.

My inclination is thrusting broadsword as well, but I'm not sure...

The Spatha and Viking Sword were both thrusting broadsword IIRC. The celtic sword was a Slashing broadsword I'd guess.

[Not another shrubbery]

The spatha, at least, is probably safe to classify as 'thrusting broardsword'.

[Dangerious P. Cats]

The European Sword styles in Gurps Martial Arts seems more to be based on what many re-enactment groups do, that is, take a number of historical manuals and develop a fighting style from all of them. Which is a perfectly valid way to make a martial art, but not good for historical research purposes. I understand why the Authors of Gurps martial arts did it this way, since many of the medieval European weapons not only cover a large number of cultures, but time periods as well, and in addition to that, are very common in fantasy worlds.

[pawsplay]

All three are thrusting broadswords, and in many eras, virtually indistinguishable.

"Celtic sword" can also refer to a proto-claymore, which would be a thrusting bastard sword, or of course a Celtic shortsword (which is a shortsword). A very old Celtic sword is a shortsword, or possibly even a Long Knife.

[Dangerious P. Cats]

Perhaps people should post pictures of the swords talking about, since there are many swords, and very few names for them.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

But if broadsword is so relegated, I can't find any description of what the "proper generic term" or stats for (a) a Roman spatha or (b) a viking sword or (c) a Celtic sword.

My inclination is thrusting broadsword as well, but I'm not sure...

My guess is, all "ordinary" swords are represented by (Thrusting) Broadsword.

Spatha, viking swords, celtic swords, 11th century swords and 13th century swords were all "different" but they don't deserve different stats in GURPS.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

Reading through Martial Arts, there's a "universal" shortsword but the description of broadsword refers only to a medieval "arming sword" while longsword refers to the late medieval bastard sword. But if broadsword is so relegated, I can't find any description of what the "proper generic term" or stats for (a) a Roman spatha or (b) a viking sword or (c) a Celtic sword.

My inclination is thrusting broadsword as well, but I'm not sure...

"Arming sword" is pretty close to "OPH:I know _proper_ weapons nomenclature". It means nothing more than "the kind of sword with which medieval European warriors were usually armed."

It no more belongs in a weapons table than "sidearm" does. "Sgt York drew his sidearm and engaged the Germans" is okay only as long as you already know what Sgt. York was packing. "Alvin of York dreweth his arming sword and didst battle the Teutonic Knights" is fully equivalent.

To your question, a Spatha is a thrusting broadsword. Here's one from a decent replica house.

http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/mr500876.htm

Note that it is a little light. You could reduce Swing by 1 if you wanted to reflect that. I'd also be iffy about some types of parry with the limited handguard. I'd prefer to use a shield.

Heres a viking sword though it would have been common over all of northern Europe (including celtic areas) from the 8th century or so on. An obvious evolution from the spatha. A more robust handguard and pommel. A definite thrusting broadsword, almost archetypal.

http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/mr500944.htm

Here's what most people are talking about when they say "Celtic sword".

http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/sr084.htm

Contemporary with the spatha, this one is jsut under 24 inches long and might be a shortsword under strict Gurps definitions. It's a little heavy for a shortsword and one just a couple of inches longer would be a thrusting broadsword.

In short, any one-handed balanced blade over 24 inches long is a broadsword and I've never actually seen Gurps "standard" broadsword with its' blunt tip. I've seen "too curved to thrust with" but not just "blunt".

[Kromm]

David, all of these would be thrusting broadswords in any way that would matter. That's mostly why Martial Arts didn't go into much detail on them. We tried not to invent new stats for very similar weapons unless the playtesters cited a source for this, which is why the treatment isn't completely even -- e.g., why the longsword gets differentiated from the bastard sword, and why there are several sizes of falchions and katars.

I'll add that we very specifically decided not to get into the cross-guard vs. guardless debate, in the end. There are a few stubs for rules like this, where we intended to add such complications if playtesters requested them, but these were never developed. That's more topical for Low-Tech anyway, as Martial Arts is a book for combat rules and fighting styles, not an armoury guide. Should you need such distinctions, I'd say that you could do worse than to sum it all up with "-1 Parry, can't use the Bind Weapon technique, and can't reverse the sword to use the Hook technique."

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Kromm

David, all of these would be thrusting broadswords in any way that would matter. That's mostly why MA didn't go into much detail on them. We tried not to invent new stats for very similar weapons unless the playtesters cited a source for this, which is why the treatment isn't completely even -- i.e., why the longsword gets differentiated from the bastard sword, and why there are several sizes of falchions and katars.

Thanks to everyone who commented!

I wasn't looking for stats for spatha, viking swords, etc. - I was just puzzled why mid-length swords were not mentioned at all when the text appeared to take pains to say things like "Shortsword (Universal): See Basic Set."

This left me wondering exactly what weapon the Vikings or Roman cavalry would have used - thrusting broadsword, cutting broadsword (if it exists), etc.

I'm still not sure, for example, whether there is a thing as a cutting broadsword or not!