Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer

[maximara]

I was updating the GURPS wiki regarding [https://gurps.wikia.com/wiki/Ritual_Magi Ritual Magic] and realized that Path/Book magic as its exists in 4e fits the setting like a glove.

1) It is a totally different system of magic from the GURPS Voodoo's Ritual Magic system which doesn't exist on Merlin-1; Voodoo's Ritual Magic system didn't use magery; 4e's version does: Magery (Path/Book).
2) GURPS Technomancer expressly states "Some spells predated the Hellstorm: prayers, the oral rituals of shamanism and Voudoun, formulae from old grimoires and Books of Shadows, etc. Many were useless, but a few worked as is, and more were modified into working order. Old Tradspells often invoked the power of ancestors, spirits, saints, angels, demons or divinity." (pg 14)

Path/Book ritual magic in 4e has several options: Mandatory Magery, Limited Non-Mage Ceremonies, Magery Adds to Rituals, and Magery Caps Skills.
Given that some of the spells that existed before the Manastorm actually worked which version wouldn't it make sense that 4e Ritual Magic (which eliminates the prerequisite change) be the system used on Merlin-1?

[dataweaver]

Let's disentangle some things here:

1. What 3e calls Ritual Magic, 4e calls Path/Book Magic — specifically, Effect-Shaping Path Magic. (The 3e adaptation of Castle Falkenstein had a Ritual Magick system in it that matches up with 4e's Energy-Accumulating Book Magic; but that's generally not what people think of when they think of 3e Ritual Magic.)

2. What 4e calls Ritual Magic is an alternate framework for learning spells in the regular magic system, specifically the setup of a core skill (usually Ritual Magic), a set of Path skills corresponding to the Colleges, and individual Ritual techniques corresponding to individual spells. This framework is also used by the Path/Book Magic systems.

With that in mind, Path/Book Magic is not totally different from the Ritual Magic system found in GURPS Spirits. Yes, Ritual Aptitude is renamed as “Magery (Path/Book)”; but it's fundamentally the same thing. And while it's true that Voodoo and Old West used a clunky and rigid 15-level Initiation Advantage instead of Magery, a major goal of GURPS Spirits was to get away from that.

The same reasons why 3e Ritual Magic doesn't fit the Technomancer world are why Path/Book Magic doesn't fit it either. Instead, pre-Hellstorm magic is defined in terms of having a very limited spell list, operating in a low-mana environment at best, and maybe having rare access to Assisting Spirits (invoking the power of ancestors, spirits, saints, angels, demons, or divinity).

That said, if you want to add Path/Book Magic to Technomancer, go ahead.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Let's disentangle some things here:

1. What 3e calls Ritual Magic, 4e calls Path/Book Magic — specifically, Effect-Shaping Path Magic. (The 3e adaptation of Castle Falkenstein had a Ritual Magick system in it that matches up with 4e's Energy-Accumulating Book Magic; but that's generally not what people think of when they think of 3e Ritual Magic.)

2. What 4e calls Ritual Magic is an alternate framework for learning spells in the regular magic system, specifically the setup of a core skill (usually Ritual Magic), a set of Path skills corresponding to the Colleges, and individual Ritual techniques corresponding to individual spells. This framework is also used by the Path/Book Magic systems.

With that in mind, Path/Book Magic is not totally different from the Ritual Magic system found in GURPS Spirits. Yes, Ritual Aptitude is renamed as “Magery (Path/Book)”; but it's fundamentally the same thing. And while it's true that Voodoo and Old West used a clunky and rigid 15-level Initiation Advantage instead of Magery, a major goal of GURPS Spirits was to get away from that.

The same reasons why 3e Ritual Magic doesn't fit the Technomancer world are why Path/Book Magic doesn't fit it either. Instead, pre-Hellstorm magic is defined in terms of having a very limited spell list, operating in a low-mana environment at best, and maybe having rare access to Assisting Spirits (invoking the power of ancestors, spirits, saints, angels, demons, or divinity).

That said, if you want to add Path/Book Magic to Technomancer, go ahead.

The thing is Ritual Magic as presented in 3e is actually a different animal from 4e's Path/Book Magic.

1) 3e Ritual Magic is totally independent of mana and magery (both Voodoo and Spirits state this); 4e Ritual Magic, just like the default system uses both though there are optional rules like Mandatory Magery, Limited Non-Mage Ceremonies, Magery Adds to Rituals, and Magery Caps Skills.

2) We know that some spells actually worked pre-manastorm but from some of them (like Planar Summons/Summon Demon) makes far more sense with Ritual Magic then the prerequisite (standard) magic system.

3) As Authentic Thaumaturgy shows, how magic is thought to work in the real world is more along the lines of Ritual Magic ala religion/shamanism then the prerequisite system seen in GURPS Magic. Per the timeline spells can be demonstrated on demand by 1946...but this raises the question of how Merlin used what was effectively a Ritual Magic Thaumatology to build a prerequisit Thaumatology. It comes off as a non sequitur.

4) It is unclear if Clerical like magic exists on Merlin-1 (the blessed advantage certainly does) and the two non ritual magic versions that existed in 3e worked totally differently. Fantasy/Magic Clerical magic is a real mess as clerics learned and cast spells as if they were mages...but they didn't actually have magery.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by maximara

1) 3e Ritual Magic is totally independent of mana and magery (both Voodoo and Spirits state this); 4e Ritual Magic, just like the default system uses both though there are optional rules like Mandatory Magery, Limited Non-Mage Ceremonies, Magery Adds to Rituals, and Magery Caps Skills.

By default, 4e's Effect-Shaping Path Magic is independent of Mana; there are a few options that let you factor it in if you want, such as Ritual Space and Mana on p.126 or a paragraph about how Low Mana and Magic Resistance, but those are options for those who want Mana Level to be involved, not requirements.

As for Magery, it's a 5-point Advantage that lets you use the Path/Book magic system without penalty, just like Ritual Aptitude from GURPS Spirits. More importantly, it is not the same thing as the Magery that lets someone learn and use spells from the regular magic system. Thaumatology's Path/Book Magic is every bit as distinct from the regular magic system as 3e's Ritual Magic was; and while it includes more options for customization, it is at its core the same as 3e's Ritual Magic.

[scc]

From page 5 of Thaumatology:
"Notably, C.J. Carella’s GURPS Voodoo provided a potent, subtle system of ritual magic (called “Path/Book” magic in Thaumatology; see pp. 121-165), which Stephen Kenson subsequently revised and expanded in GURPS Spirits."

[maximara]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

By default, 4e's Effect-Shaping Path Magic is independent of Mana; there are a few options that let you factor it in if you want, such as Ritual Space and Mana on p.126 or a paragraph about how Low Mana and Magic Resistance, but those are options for those who want Mana Level to be involved, not requirements.

Effect-Shaping Theory is very vague regarding mana and per pg 126 "If Path/Book and spell- based magic are closely related, then the local mana level can determine modifiers for rituals, probably replacing the requirement for ritual space"

I again point to Authentic Thaumaturgy which shows that how magic is thought to work in the real world is more along the lines of Ritual Magic ala religion/shamanism then the prerequisite system seen in GURPS Magic. Since some pre-manastorm spells actually did work they were likely built around a Path/Book system; so how do you go from that kind of Thaumatology to build a prerequisit based Thaumatology? It comes off as a non sequitur.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

As for Magery, it's a 5-point Advantage that lets you use the Path/Book magic system without penalty, just like Ritual Aptitude from GURPS Spirits. More importantly, it is not the same thing as the Magery that lets someone learn and use spells from the regular magic system. .

"The GM decides which of the following optional rules apply:"

Limited Non- Mage Ceremonies: "In highly detailed games, “fractional” Magery 0 that partly eliminates this penalty may exist. This costs 1 point per -1 removed. A magician receives none of the other benefits of Magery 0 until he has eliminated the full -5."

That is an optional rule not the default.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Thaumatology's Path/Book Magic is every bit as distinct from the regular magic system as 3e's Ritual Magic was; and while it includes more options for customization, it is at its core the same as 3e's Ritual Magic.

From what I am reading no it isn't. Sure there are core elements that are similar but they aren't the same.

GURPS Magic (2004): Ritual Magery works off mana just like regular magery does.

GURPS Fantasy (2004): Roma Arcana setting - "In general, Roman sorcery derives power from mana (called numen in Latin), but mana consists of spirits. (...) Mages always have Ritual Magery. The underlying skill for magic is Ritual Magic instead of Thaumatology" For those who are part of the cult of Isis it is stated "Skills in the various magical colleges default to Thaumatology-6 (see p. B225) and the individual spells default to the colleges as techniques."

GURPS Thaumatology came out 2006 and allowed modification of the "core" rules of Ritual Magic but that core defaulted to involving mana.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

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GURPS Magic (2004): Ritual Magery works off mana just like regular magery does.

GURPS Fantasy (2004): Roma Arcana setting - "In general, Roman sorcery derives power from mana (called numen in Latin), but mana consists of spirits. (...) Mages always have Ritual Magery. The underlying skill for magic is Ritual Magic instead of Thaumatology" For those who are part of the cult of Isis it is stated "Skills in the various magical colleges default to Thaumatology-6 (see p. B225) and the individual spells default to the colleges as techniques."

GURPS Thaumatology came out 2006 and allowed modification of the "core" rules of Ritual Magic but that core defaulted to involving mana.

"Ritual Magic" as definded in Basic 4e is a completely different system from what used that name in 3e. It is instead a minor variant of standard "mana" Magic.

Path/Book Magic from Thaumatoloy is unrelated to Ritual Magic from Basic except in terms of classification of game mechnics as systems using "a" Ritual Magic Skill. You will in patricular note tha the list of effects i.e. Spells in one and Rituals in the other are completely different.

Ritual Magic also make sno use of the critical components of Path/Boook in terms of Time, Space etc.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

"Ritual Magic" as definded in Basic 4e is a completely different system from what used that name in 3e. It is instead a minor variant of standard "mana" Magic.

Which for GURPS Technomancer saying "ritual Magic" ala voodoo didn't exist was my point.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Path/Book Magic from Thaumatoloy is unrelated to Ritual Magic from Basic except in terms of classification of game mechnics as systems using "a" Ritual Magic Skill. You will in patricular note tha the list of effects i.e. Spells in one and Rituals in the other are completely different.

Ritual Magic also make sno use of the critical components of Path/Boook in terms of Time, Space etc.

Incorrect on all points.

"Some GURPS supplements offered completely new,models of magic. Notably, C.J. Carella’s GURPS Voodoo provided a potent, subtle system of ritual magic (called “Path/Book” magic in Thaumatology; see pp. 121-165), which Stephen Kenson subsequently revised and expanded in GURPS Spirits.: - GURPS Thaumatology pg 5

"The ritual magic system is described on p. B242 (and also GURPS Magic, p. 200)." pg 72

Chapter 5, Path and Books: "This system is a broad variant of Ritual Magic (pp. 72- 76). Its basis is the Ritual Magic skill (p. B218), which defines the principles behind all the operations. Multiple Ritual Magic specialties might exist – reflecting different approaches to the art – or all magic may be essentially the same. The skill’s description notwithstanding, it doesn’t necessarily involve working with spirits; this and other details depend on the setting’s metaphysics." (sic, pg 122)

Path and Books is a variant of Ritual Magic in the same way Ritual Magic is a variant of the "core standard" magic system.

[dataweaver]

Path/Book Magic is a variant of Ritual Magic in the sense that it uses the same “core skill and Paths” approach to learning magic that Ritual Magic does. But that's it. Heck, it doesn't even use Techniques the same way that Ritual Magic does: Effect-Shaping Magic has nothing like the Prerequisite Count, and Energy-Accumulating Magic doesn't even have that.

And in terms of the mechanics of how magic works, both Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulating amount to ripping out the heart of the regular magic system that's detailed in Basic Set and GURPS Magic and replacing it with a completely different system. Path/Book Magic may be a variant of Ritual Magic; but it's not a variant in the same way that Ritual Magic is a variant of regular magic. Heck, you can't even use Ritual Magic's spell list with Path/Book Magic or vice versa. Virtually the only thing they have in common is the aforementioned “core skill and Paths”.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

Which for GURPS Technomancer saying "ritual Magic" ala voodoo didn't exist was my point.

.

Your point has become more than a little obscure.

That there was no equivalent of Path/Book Magic (4e) in Technomancer seems to be what that quote implies. That's not being argued against.

That standard Magic in a particularly scientific form dominates Merlin-1 is also quite obvious.

Ritual Magic as defined by Basic 4e is learned and rigourously dependable sytem for improvising the same spell list used by standard Magic. That soem form of this existed before 1945 on Merlin-1 appears to be an idea without any particular support.

That some spells worked some times for people who didn't realy understand how magic works after 1945 implies nothing much in particular.

That those magical traditions evovled into the Berkeley Grimoire after 1945 mostly implies that they were primitive and poorly uderstood versions of standard Magic spells.

We can be rather certain of the suthor's intent vis-vis other forms of magic when Technomancer was written because nothing else besides Voodoo(Path/Book Magic) existed then.

If some individual GM to retxcon the setting to include some form of Ritual Magic into it he is, of course free to do so. However, the reason he is free to do so is that its' his game not that such a thing is implied in Technomancer.