A Thaumatological Problem: Magic On Harn

[martinl]

Originally Posted by hal

In the end, the concept of "perk" cost per spell just doesn't sit right with me. The reason for this is the fact that each spell is essentially a skill, and that like any other skill, it starts its long difficult journey to mastery with one step taken at a time, and the first step being to have a desire to learn the spell itself. Perks don't really come across to me as "Skills", but that's just me.

But it's not representing the skill: it's representing the HM "Learning roll" not the "Skill development roll." In HM, the former takes a few days, and access to special materials, and often social dispensation, which seems appropriate for a GURPS perk. The latter takes months worth of SD rolls, and seems about right for a GURPS technique or skill.

[Michael Cule]

Well, I tried using GURPS Magic as is the first time I used GURPS for Harn. It's the easier approach but it's a bit flavourless for me.

This time (if, you know, I ever get a round tuit) I'd go for adapting the idea of the Shek-Pavar as written into GURPS terms. I'd only have to adapt the few spells from HARNMASTER MAGIC and leave the rest for the PC magi to create.

I did at one stage consider using ARS MAGICA on Harn but while that's fine for a game entirely focused on mages it won't work for a more general game.

I do sometimes wonder which came first, the Shek-Pavar or the Order of Hermes. There are notable similarities.

[hal]

Just out of curiosity, which version of Harn Master's magic system are you trying to emulate? The Harn Master 1st edition, Harn Master 3rd edition, or Harn Master Gold edition?

There are some distinct differences between the different Harn Masters, as well as a distinct difference between GURPS and any of the Harn Masters <g>.

One of the things I noted with regards to HM 1st (abbreviated as HM1 from now on), as compared against GURPS spells, is that the more skilled you are with a given spell, the better the capabilities of the spell itself. For instance, taken from the Tome of the Ancient and Esoteric Mysteries of the Powers of PELEAHN (whew, what a mouthful for a single pamplet sized booklet!), the spell Zyrgin's Heat tells us that the spell will last 10 minutes times the spell index level of the caster. So for someone with a skill of 25% for example (a skill of about an 8 on 3d6 in GURPS) would last about 20 minutes, while a skill of 50% (skill 10 in GURPS) would have a Skill Index of 5, and last about 50 minutes. If this spell is cast with a crit success, the spell lasts 3x longer than normal - and that is the only benefit.

Making matters worse is the idea that if your Mastery level (ie skill level) is at a given value - the spell will not only be as described, but will also make the fire smokeless. At the next level of mastery breakpoint, the spell will not be negated if one adds more fuel to the fire after the spell was cast. And finally, at the highest breakpoint of skill mastery, the fire will consume all of the combustable material leaving zero ashes.

How does one include the "spirit" of that type of spell casting, without having to maintain the exactitude of the game mechanics. For instance, a skill mastery level of 71% is not possible in GURPS, as a 3d6 die rolling system is a bell curve probability versus a percentile die rolling system being capable of handling that level of granularity. The closest probabily matching for a skill of 71% in Harn Master works out to a skill 12 in GURPS. The closest match to 81% in Harn Master works out to a skill of 13 in GURPS, while a skill of 91% in Harn Master works out to a skill of about 14 in GURPS.

The problem here however, is that the "in game time" passage of time to gain a skill of 71% is exceedingly higher than it would take for an IQ 10 individual in GURPS to attain a skill of 12 - than it would be in Harn Master.

So are you trying to replicate the "time to acquire expertise levels" in Harn Master with that of GURPS, or are you trying for a one to one correspondance with GURPS outright?

As with any game system, all that is required to create an operational "magic system" is for the GM to have an idea of what the spell is supposed to do, how it reflects this "thing of accomplishment" in game mechanics, and how it is to be limited for game play (ie how much fatigue it costs, how often can the spell be cast, how other victims/targets resist the effects of the spell casting, etc). GURPS chose a method of portraying magic by means of:

College
Fatigue Cost
Recurring fatigue costs to maintain (if spell can be maintained)
Mental difficulty to learn spell
Magery requirement/limitation on who can cast the spell
Requisite chain - must have all requisites to learn the spell

D&D went about it by having a Character level requirement
Wisdom/Intelligence requirement (spells for Clerics and/or Mages)
Racial limits on how high a level certain races can attain
Physical components usually costing money to obtain

Harn Master's method of portraying spell limitations was a little more convoluted (not a complaint per se, but an observation) as compared against either of GURPS or D&D or any other game system.

Mind you, I've not attempted to convert HARN MASTER's SHEK P'VAR directly to GURPS because the "system" was not built to take into account certain of the checks and balances a "point build system" for characters sort of needs as contrasted against say RUNEQUEST or D&D or even C&S game systems. In addition, Harn Master's spell lists tend to be relatively small and relatively (as compared with GURPS anyhow) specialized. Probably the closest system I've seen that compares with Harn Master's magic system is that of DRAGONQUEST. I thought Dragonquest's magic system was really LIMITED in what it allowed mages to do. Basically, that was more of a ONE COLLEGE magic approach, which I positively dislike in GURPS for my own player characters or even NPCs for that matter ;)